Is everyone buying their knifes wrongly or i am getting something wrong?

Some info about cutting edges that may be of some value. This is what I use. Watch all four videos if you get a chance. This is how the big cheese at Spyderco got into knives and knife making. He is very knowledgeable about the subject.


I edc a Gayle Bradley 1 and have no problems with this M4 steel using the Sharpmaker system, or any other knife and I have a bunch.
 
000Robert said:
Great steel is nice but it doesn't mean a whole lot if the HT is no good.
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and/or the edge geometry is off/bad.

I didn't watch the video. I tend to ignore the self appointed "experts" who don't have a reputation for knowing, or lack so much as a clue, about that which they speak. (you can generally tell if they know with-in the first minute or so)

Were the edges sharpened to the same inclusive angle? Did he polish the S30V edge the same as the 8CR13MoV?
From what I've been told, S30V performs best with a "toothy" edge (say 600 grit compared to 800 or finer) than it does with a highly polished edge. 8CR13MoV, on the other hand (from what I've heard) performs best with a highly polished edge.

If his results were/are markedly different than everyone else's, he rigged the "test" conditions (intentional or not) to obtain the results he wanted to support his allegations.
 
afishhunter said:
and/or the edge geometry is off/bad.

I didn't watch the video. I tend to ignore the self appointed "experts" who don't have a reputation for knowing, or lack so much as a clue, about that which they speak. (you can generally tell if they know with-in the first minute or so)

Were the edges sharpened to the same inclusive angle? Did he polish the S30V edge the same as the 8CR13MoV?
From what I've been told, S30V performs best with a "toothy" edge (say 600 grit compared to 800 or finer) than it does with a highly polished edge. 8CR13MoV, on the other hand (from what I've heard) performs best with a highly polished edge.

If his results were/are markedly different than everyone else's, he rigged the "test" conditions (intentional or not) to obtain the results he wanted to support his allegations.
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I am not an expert so I pretty much listen to the knifemakers - those whose business depends upon the quality of their knives. So I will go with the consensus among them.
 
afishhunter said:
Were the edges sharpened to the same inclusive angle? Did he polish the S30V edge the same as the 8CR13MoV? From what I've been told, S30V performs best with a "toothy" edge (say 600 grit compared to 800 or finer) than it does with a highly polished edge. 8CR13MoV, on the other hand (from what I've heard) performs best with a highly polished edge.
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Exactly. All things being equal it's not possible for 8Cr to perform as well as S30V in edge retention. I've seen this first hand after having tested dozens of knives (a lot of S30V and less 8Cr). To be fair, they did not have the same geometry so you could question my results. I try to test at least 3 different edge finishes per knife at the same edge angle.

Somebody who knows a little about steel did some testing as well (making LINK more obvious). Everybody interested in edge retention owes it to themselves to read that Knife Steel Nerds article. Unfortunately 8Cr was not one of the steels Larrin tested. But if you read his articles and look at projected steel properties based on steel components and manufacturing process, you can learn why it's not possible for 8Cr to do what S30V does for edge retention.
 
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One more comment on testing validity and variability: even though there are variables such as blade geometry, edge angle and finish, you're going to see different steels limited to a specific range of performance. 8Cr with a 20 DPS edge vs. a 12 DPS edge will be different, but it's going to be limited to range for that steel (assuming your testing media and testing methodology is similar for both). So at the high end 8Cr could get close to S30V at the low end under different conditions. For example, 8Cr at 14 DPS with 8 micron edge vs. S30V at 20 degrees and an 80 micron edge.

The way to manage this (imo) to provide ALL the data, to do multiple tests to rule out anomalies, and to categorize results where they are differences (edge angle, edge finish, etc.). Cedric & Ada does a pretty good job of this. You can view his results based on edge angle, edge finish, and other variables. Unfortunately, thickness behind the edge is not something he's documenting.

You can see Cedric & Ada data grouped by range of cuts per steel and by cuts by edge angle. These are very telling and the reality for most of us is likely toward the middle of the range for edge retention on any given knife. Toward the higher end for for thinner blades, steeper edge angles, and better sharpening.

Between Larrin's data (which is unimpeachable, imo), Cedric & Ada's data, and many others, it's pretty clear what range of edge retention you can expect by steel.

I get that edge retention is not the only factor in carrying a knife. I'm currently carrying a folder with Acuto 440 steel (similar to 440C) and my Maxamet folder is in a drawer today. Edge retention is less important to me once I get over a certain point.

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I've done controlled cardboard testing just like this on my own time, and found a Spyderco Tenacious to perform nearly identically to my ZT 0308 with similar edge angles and finishes. I found my 204p military to be a little better, though not anything I would notice in normal, uncontrolled use. The only thing I think I can state with reasonable confidence is that extremely hard tool steel blades from Spyderco seem to do better for me to the point where I'd notice a difference if I paid attention during use. Between decent stainless steels, it's tricky to find a difference, if any.

I found there is a lot of subjectivity to how you decide to stop cutting. A dull knife can saw through paper cleanly, so at what point do you call the test completed? Likewise, I can scrape shave a dull knife to cut some hairs off my leg; at what point do I stop trying? And can you make those calls consistently over tons of trials with different knives? I think value comes from testers who demonstrably indicate an ability to get consistent results, as my results certainly weren't consistent enough to be useful.

I'm convinced that, while it's important to have good edge retention, most decent stainless steels already do that just fine. More noticeable to me are differences in toughness/strength/corrosion resistance, up to a point. Also, I can certainly tell when one blade is significantly easier to sharpen than another, and I find I really like tool steels for that reason. I can't explain why that is other than that I can get them sharper easier and I don't seem to have to deal with stubborn burrs as often.

On a side note, it's all fine and great that CATRA testing shows differences between steels, but I think people then assume that necessarily equates to a difference in the end user experience, and that's not always the case. CATRA machines measure minute changes in performance during a test that a human likely won't even be able to detect, and the real differences between trials seem to be in the region of the test after where a normal user would long have considered his blade dull and ready to be sharpened.
 
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marrenmiller said:
I've done controlled cardboard testing just like this on my own time, and found a Spyderco Tenacious to perform nearly identically to my ZT 0308 with similar edge angles and finishes. I found my 204p military to be a little better, though not anything I would notice in normal, uncontrolled use. The only thing I think I can state with reasonable confidence is that extremely hard tool steel blades from Spyderco seem to do better for me to the point where I'd notice a difference if I paid attention during use. Between decent stainless steels, it's tricky to find a difference, if any.

I found there is a lot of subjectivity to how you decide to stop cutting. A dull knife can saw through paper cleanly, so at what point do you call the test completed? Likewise, I can scrape shave a dull knife to cut some hairs off my leg; at what point do I stop trying? And can you make those calls consistently over tons of trials with different knives? I think value comes from testers who demonstrably indicate an ability to get consistent results, as my results certainly weren't consistent enough to be useful.

I'm convinced that, while it's important to have good edge retention, most decent stainless steels already do that just fine. More noticeable to me are differences in toughness/strength/corrosion resistance, up to a point.
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Great point. You have to be able to objectively know what "dull" is to get an accurate result. I use the Cedric & Ada method of calling it done when it won't cleanly cut printer paper. Even this has some subjectivity to it and a few variables, like paper orientation. Also how many cuts you made between the last two paper cuts. If it cuts paper cleanly after 200 cuts but not after 250, when did it get dull? 205 or 245? This can be mitigated with more frequent checking.

ZT has had lower results than other brands with the S35VN. This has been repeated. Not sure about their 20CV. If you're getting the same results with Spyderco 204P and 8Cr I have to question your testing methodology. These aren't close to the same for edge retention based on my experience and that of others. Given the same edge and sharpener (Worsharp at 20 degrees) Cedric and Ada got ~7x the cuts from 204P vs. 8Cr. I haven't tested 204P. I got 3.5x more cuts on Spyderco M390 and Buck 20CV @ 17 degrees vs. my Tenacious factory edge. I'll haven't tested the Tenacious with my own edge. It will do better, but I can't imagine it will get close to M390. I got about 50% of the edge retention from CRKT 8Cr as I did from the Tenacious. Very different blade geometry.

I'm currently sharpening 24 different Spyderco Mules and will cut test all of them blind by taping over the blade markings. This won't be 100% blind because some blades have different finishes and some have scratches, but it should eliminate my own bias for results for ~75% of the steels. I'll have the wife randomly sort them and will then cut test them in whatever order she decides. I won't know what the steel is until after I test them all.
 
The sky is blue, the water is wet and Knives get dull... some things never change ;)

Sooner or later you have to build some sharpening skills ... for the tools , it really depends on you and you budget but for me the sharpmaker has been a very good starting point
 
I don't use ANY of the knives I "collect" to cut ANYTHING! So, I don't have to sharpen them.

The knives that I do use are almost ALL made w/carbon steel blades that dull easily but then again are easy to sharpen w/any sharpening stone (or even a sharpening steel (gasp!!!) that's handy.

We're talking about kitchen knives, hatchets/axes and camp knives which are the only knives that I actually use for more than just opening a letter or cutting a string.

I've got many carbon steel kitchen knives that I inherited from my father (a sous chef) that he spent HOURS sharpening on a 2 sided (coarse & smooth) carborundum stone (with water & oil respectively), which I learned how to do from him but seldom do because I'm lazy. LOL! ;)

On the other hand, I've got a Spyderco Sharpmaker w/all the available rods (including diamonds) and can sharpen any premium hardened steel if need be.
 
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David Richardson said:
Great point. You have to be able to objectively know what "dull" is to get an accurate result. I use the Cedric & Ada method of calling it done when it won't cleanly cut printer paper. Even this has some subjectivity to it and a few variables, like paper orientation. Also how many cuts you made between the last two paper cuts. If it cuts paper cleanly after 200 cuts but not after 250, when did it get dull? 205 or 245? This can be mitigated with more frequent checking.

ZT has had lower results than other brands with the S35VN. This has been repeated. Not sure about their 20CV. If you're getting the same results with Spyderco 204P and 8Cr I have to question your testing methodology. These aren't close to the same for edge retention based on my experience and that of others. Given the same edge and sharpener (Worsharp at 20 degrees) Cedric and Ada got ~7x the cuts from 204P vs. 8Cr. I haven't tested 204P. I got 3.5x more cuts on Spyderco M390 and Buck 20CV @ 17 degrees vs. my Tenacious factory edge. I'll haven't tested the Tenacious with my own edge. It will do better, but I can't imagine it will get close to M390. I got about 50% of the edge retention from CRKT 8Cr as I did from the Tenacious. Very different blade geometry.

I'm currently sharpening 24 different Spyderco Mules and will cut test all of them blind by taping over the blade markings. This won't be 100% blind because some blades have different finishes and some have scratches, but it should eliminate my own bias for results for ~75% of the steels. I'll have the wife randomly sort them and will then cut test them in whatever order she decides. I won't know what the steel is until after I test them all.
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I didn't get the same results with Spyderco 204p. It just wasn't so different that I'd notice in actual use.
It's completely fair to question my testing, but it isn't like I did anything outlandish. I used a similar methodology as all the prominent cardboard testing groups have, sharpening on a KME to 600 grit @ 17dps measured with a digital angle finder, stropping on 0.1 micron and ensuring there was no sign of any burr, taping off a 1" section of relatively straight edge, and making cuts in a prepared length of u-haul double ply cardboard against a cardboard cutting board until I couldn't shave, then again until cutting printer paper was a struggle. I even ensured I was keeping cutting evenly across the 1" measured edge section, and I was checking every 5 or 10 cuts toward the end of the trials. The 0308 did a tad better at maintaining a hair shaving edge, but making maybe 10% more cuts before stopping isn't a victory in my mind when the knife cost 6x as much. This is not significantly different from what this testing group found of a number of 20CV/204p/M390 knives, and you can see examples of some 20CV knives being outperformed even by lots of "inferior" steels. I know that Pete's work has been laudable and he pretty much always finds a difference between budget and super steels with his rope tests, but cardboard seems to be a different sort of test for some reason.

I was not been impressed with ZT's heat treatment on that knife, which noticeably dulled going through a few boxes.
 
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marrenmiller said:
I didn't get the same results with Spyderco 204p. It just wasn't so different that I'd notice in actual use.
It's completely fair to question my testing, but it isn't like I did anything outlandish. I used a similar methodology as all the prominent cardboard testing groups have, sharpening on a KME to 600 grit @ 17dps measured with a digital angle finder, stropping on 0.1 micron and ensuring there was no sign of any burr, taping off a 1" section of relatively straight edge, and making cuts in a prepared length of u-haul double ply cardboard against a cardboard cutting board until I couldn't shave, then again until cutting printer paper was a struggle. I even ensured I was keeping cutting evenly across the 1" measured edge section, and I was checking every 5 or 10 cuts toward the end of the trials. The 0308 did a tad better at maintaining a hair shaving edge, but making maybe 10% more cuts before stopping isn't a victory in my mind when the knife cost 6x as much. This is not significantly different from what this testing group found of a number of 20CV/204p/M390 knives, and you can see examples of some 20CV knives being outperformed even by lots of "inferior" steels. I know that Pete's work has been laudable and he pretty much always finds a difference between budget and super steels with his rope tests, but cardboard seems to be a different sort of test for some reason.

I was not been impressed with ZT's heat treatment on that knife, which noticeably dulled going through a few boxes.
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Good explanation of what you did and it seems quite good. There seems to some crappy 20CV/M390 out there. I've only tested Buck and Spyderco for those steels. The Spyderco is quite good, as expected. The Buck is also good. Not quite up to the Spyderco, but close.

Correction: I also tested Kershaw M390, but the results we so poor I chalked them up to bad testing and tossed out those results. Maybe I was too quick to blame myself. I no longer have that knife to test, unfortunately.
 
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