Is Filipino the best?

Joined
Jul 9, 2000
Messages
173
Ok this is the story. I'm getting a knife for self-defense, it wouldn't be of much use without proper training. Would training filipino be the best for me? (total beginner) i want to learn what's efficient, what works... no bs, no 7 days a week, 15 years of training stuff.. as serious and "real" as possible (including lot's of sparring, possibly adrenaline training etc)... what is a "normal" training session of filipino (or whatever the actual name is) like? do you train mostly against other people with knives? do you work with multiple opponents? etc.. please tell me more! (or point me in the right direction for learning more)...

And to you experienced people - if you were to do it all from the beginning, starting from scratch how would YOU approach self-defense with a knife? thanks for your views on this!

also one more thing - what type of knives do filipino style prefer? are they good choice in the modern western city life where you cannot wear it visible? (i will have to wear my knife concelead and it's gotta be comfortable or it will stay at home, and not use there..)

best regards,
chariot
 
my advice to you if you do not want to study for a long time, but you want to learn to use your knife...stay away from video and seminar!

most of the things my students show me that they learn in a seminar and tapes is garbage. if you want to make those things work you have to already be a fighter with experience and then maybe you can make almost anything work! but you do not want to study for a long time.

i would like to offer three patterns with the knife (holding like a hammer, the easiest):
1. back hand slash across the neck, face, or your opponent hand or arm.
2. short, downward slash and back. your hand makes a teardrop shape and it is very skinny but long.
3. short, upward jab/stab and back

basic rules:
a. keep your hand moving, both of them. do your #1 or #2 a lot, but look out for your opponent to grab your hand or cut your hand or move in on you.
b. keep your feet wide, only wide enough so you can move easy and fast. your back heel should not touch the floor.
c. if your opponent has no weapon, just cut his face and hands, he will give up, but dont kill him, you will be in BIG trouble. if he has a weapon be careful and dont get hit, but cut his hand if he dosnt have short sleeves shirt on, and arm if he does.
d. if he is using a knife, move in a circle, keep your free hand up and outside in case you need to use it to slap his hand or grab him. your knife hand should be close to you and leave only to fake or cut or stab. if you want to cut his while he is cutting you, it is best to cut on top (you cut downward). forget the seminar technique ("gunting") you will get cut like a fish filet. when you cut down and out, his blade is not going towards your knife-hand most likely it is downward or outside.
d. if he is cutting high you can duck and stab his leg if you do not have time to move away. forget trying to cut his leg if hes got on jeans. you will have a hard time unless your knife is very sharp, and with no practice you should not have one. DONT TRY TO STOP A HIGH SLASH. it is stupid and dangerous.
e. you have to spar/play fight to get a feel for it. this is how you get your eyes to be fast, and your heart to calm down. also you can try more fancy things to see if they work. i bet you a siopao that its not gonna work anyway. but at least you KNOW it. to many martial artists will have to FIND OUT.

good luck my brother!
 
If you really, genuinely, urgently need a deadly weapon for self-defense, you should either be a law enforcement professional, or looking for a dwelling in a different neighborhood. This is just my way of emphasizing that carrying a weapon is a lot less important than being tactically aware of your circumstances and staying away from dangerous situations, the art of fighting without fighting (Bruce Lee - Enter the Dragon). Hence, training is a lot less important than using your head to stay out of trouble too.

What style of training is best really depends on what is available. If it is reality-based training, it will be good training. However, there isn't much knife training out there that isn't Filipino-based.

You can defend yourself with a knife (be aware of the laws regarding use of deadly force), with very little training, just hold the knife out there and cut anything that comes your way. Training is more important when your attacker has a knife. To my mind training is all about learning how to avoid getting cut. How well you do that depends on how well you train. You can do a lot of sparring, but if your technique is bad, you will still get cut and possibly die.

A typical Filipino training class would include the basics of blocking, redirecting, avoiding, and lastly, cutting. You would practice basic blocks, paries, and counter attacks over and over so that they become automatic responses. From there you might go one to two-man drills designed to teach a certain skill, followed by counter for counter sparring, where you make a controlled attack against your partner, he blocks or paries your attack and counters with his own attack which you block or pary, and so on. Ultimately, you should do some reality-based, full speed sparring. A good guro (teacher) will spice things up with weird situational drills, like turning off all the lights, many against one, one-armed defense against multiple attackers, surprise attack, and so on.

My approach to knife defense has always stemmed from two aspects of my personality, the will to defend myself from violent attack, as opposed to submitting to it, and a love for good knives. I always have a knife of some sort on my person, preferably a good sturdy one, so I might as well figure out how to use it as a tool for self-defense as well as for utility. I enjoy the challenge, fellowship, and discipline of martial study, so it makes sense that I would belong to a Filipino martial arts school, the Inayan System of Eskrima. That is how I approached self-defense, I looked until I found a good teacher, and then dedicated a fair size piece of my life-style to training.

Filipinos stylists don't really favor one type of knife over another as far as I have noticed. It is a generic tool. My guros regularly say that our techniques are our weapons, not the blades and sticks we train with. Having said that, the ubiquitous blade in the Philippines is the bolo, or a small to medium sized machete-like blade meant for clearing brush around the rice fields and fruit trees, and that is the primary weapon of the FMA in my view, though there are many styles that work with smaller blades that could be any small hunting or food processing knife.

I think it would be really cool to carry a bolo around everywhere like the farmers in the Philippines do, but it isn't practical in an urban environment. I like to carry a 4" fixed blade. It makes an ideal utility cutting tool, and a powerful self-defense tool as well. I have found that I can carry a knife of that size openly without attracting attention. In situations where a such a knife is not appropriate, like work, I carry a folding knife, concealed, usually in the 4-6" inch size, along with a smaller pocket knife.

Oh, and if you cannot really learn technique from videos, you sure cannot learn it from a forum post. I remember, any 90 pound woman can kill a 300 pound man with a knife, what requires skill is not getting cut, not getting killed when your attacker has a knife.

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 07-12-2000).]
 
Well I guess I fall into the group of I certainly believe that one can learn from tapes and seminar...LOL..
I'd go to a "brand name"seminar on edged tools and see what you think..Buy a few tapes to get a feel for what you might want to study..
Plus if this is an immediate need,,well I'd think twice as to WHY you immediately need a self defense tool.
Bad neighborhood? I'd leave LOL..
Bad group of people? I'd leave...
Immediate in the scope of life? Ok Edged tools can be learned fairly quickly..
and in today's world alot of the edged tool methods are Filipino or based on Filipino..
"Best" is a semantic situation to be explored by each individual...there is no best..LOL.
I'd carry two common pocket knives ( yes of course SHO...) and learn to use them...
Lots of us teach seminars...
JAK will be in Jacksonville soon.I'll be in South Carolina..Hock i'm sure is about, The Sayocs...Mike Janich,,look and you will find!
Have a great time!
 
thanks for the replies. no, it's not that i'm in a hurry, it's just that i'm about to buy a knife, and i dont want to end up spending $100 and then end up taking classes where they say "your knife is useless for the style we're teaching!" :
i realize it would be better doing it the other way around (first classes, then knives) but i want a knife now! (how would you feel if you didn't get to wear a knife on a daily bases, i bet you would feel naked!)

i like the style of the REKAT hobbit (the folding one) but i think it might be too big to carry around (wearing a knife of that size in your pockets)

we'll see what i decide on...

btw, a friend of mine is talking about visiting a marc animal mcyoung seminar, would that be a good choice for learning?

regards chariot


 
You can defend yourself with a knife (be aware of the laws regarding use of deadly force), with very little training, just hold the knife out there and cut anything that comes your way.

On this I will both agree and disagree. When it comes to understanding the laws regardig deadly use of force I left "heartily agree" about three counties back. It is a critical component that is often overlooked by would-be knife fighters and even worse by supposed teachers and expert knife fighters.

To begin with let me tell you flat out that most of what passes for "knife training" and Kali in the US will get you raped in prison. Flat out, straight up...your training is going to get you into more trouble with the law than you can imagine (that's if it doesn't get you killed by an armed opponent).

Now why would I say this? Because tying this back to the legal issue the only time you are justified to use a knife on someone is if you are in immediate threat of death or grave bodily injury. In other words, the guy has to be attacking you with enough force that if you stand there and do nothing you will die or go to the hospital.

Now maybe it's just me, but does anyone else see the sense of, under these circumstances, being slightly less concerned about what you are going to do to him and paying more attention to what he can do to you?

Before you even think about doing something to him, make sure you are still alive. Because the only time you are justified in using a knife on another human being is when that issue is seriously in doubt.

------------------
 
#1 The attacker should feel the steel before they see it. A knife is lethal force, you do not threaten with a handgun, don't do it with a knife.

If you are confronted by some punkass hoodlum on the street, if you tap the pocket clip of the knife to warn him, "You see this thing here?" Guess what? You are guilty of putting him in fear of his very life. You are actually the aggressor under our incredibly stupid Judicial System. You are going to jail.

If you pull the knife on him before he has threatened you with death or grave bodily injury, guess what? You escalated the confrontation. Again, you are probably going to be locked up.

This is not my opinion, this is the law. I don't like it, I think it sucks, I hate it. But that is the way it is.

As for teachers vs. seminars, training media and dedicated practice. That is personal and people paint with a broad brush when it comes to this, I have seen people who go to class several times a week who cannot tie their own shoes. A lot of time, teachers eek out enough to keep you coming back because they want to make a living at it instead of giving you what you need when you need it. Also, how much is enough? You going to chase someone else's tail forever and a day? Grow, whatever you do, grow personally and learn to cut the ties that bind you to anything but yourself and a couple dedicated friends. Dance around and seek out other people, other systems and ideas...grow. Don't become stagnant.

The Filipino Martial Arts are at the top of my list for training. They still need to be modified for this climate, this culture, this legal system, and in general, modern day America. That is the reality of things. And you have to go out on your own and learn.
 
Chariot, I'm thinking the real question is "Is FMA or any weapon art for YOU?"

Commercially, it is easier to access than a lot of other arts.

I do think Mr. MacYoung's seminar is worth attending too.
 
so i take it you think "the intimidation" factor is useless? what do you mean you dont threaten with a handgun? police do this all the time. if a punk tries to rob you with a knife, he think you are an easy pray because of him having a knife, and you dont. if YOU pull a knife as well, it's a different story as he would risk getting hurt himself. all of a sudden it doesnt seem as easy robbing you. you gotta be pretty good with a knife to pull it and use it without a doubt and not risking causing deadly damage... which could make you end up in jail.

like to hear other opinions on this. most martial artists say "if someone got a knife, run!" if you got a knife, and the enemy/attacker dont, i think the changes are he runs too... thus you dont need to use it in order for it to be effective..

Originally posted by Don Rearic:
#1 The attacker should feel the steel before they see it. A knife is lethal force, you do not threaten with a handgun, don't do it with a knife.
 
In the interest of objectivity, I'd just like to point out that you're asking "Is Filipino the best?" in the "Filipino Combat Arts Forum". It is pretty much definite that we all are going to think the answer to that question is "yes" -- we wouldn't be training this way if we didn't. You might get a more varied answer if you asked this out on a more general forum. (That said, what kinda dumbass question is that? Of course its the best ;-)

I absolutely agree with Smoke that the operative part of you question is whether it is the best for you. I would go further and try to take into account the individual instructor and whether they're teaching what and how you want to learn.

I will disagree with Smoke, however on the accessablilty of FMA. At least in my part of the world, it is pretty hard to find someone teaching Filipino styles.

[This message has been edited by Joel Stave (edited 07-13-2000).]
 
Chariot,

It is obvious that you want to try and learn, but from what I can tell (and correct me if I am wrong), you are young and have never really been in a very high stress situation, nevermind a deadly situation.

There is nothing wrong with trying to learn all you can, but I think you should take a moment, step back and think about what you are looking to accomplish. Do you just want to play around, do you want to put the time and effort into training, are you willing to possibly get seriously injured in a fight, are you REALLY prepared to take a life if need be?

You stated above that when it comes to brandishing a gun for intimidation, "Cop's do it all the time". Let me explain that if myself or a fellow LEO draws a weapon, it does not constitute Deadly Physical Force, it is considered Physical Force. If yourself or another civilian draws a weapon it immediately constitutes Deadly Physical Force, and if you are not 100% correct in your assumption that the BG is about to inflict SERIOUS physical injury or death, you will be getting booked in at your local police station. Whether that is right or not is not an issue, it is just the way the laws are set up.

As far as being gung ho about getting a knife, that is fine. I love knives and have many different ones. But you must first learn how to handle it, know it's limits, your limits, etc. before you would even consider drawing it to defend yourself. If someone draws a knife on me,(which again is Deadly Physical Force) he had better have every intention on finishing his original thought, because I can guarantee you that I would not think twice about ending the situation permanently. At the point that a knife is drawn it is no longer a game/training, it is deadly serious, and you must be able to strike with precision, and hopefully survive to see the next day.

While it might seem cool to have a knife and play around with it and learn how to use it, it is still a very dangerous weapon and should be considered as such first and foremost.

More than likely 99% of the people on these forums will never have to use their knife to defend themselves,and that is a good thing. Should you be prepared in case you are in that other 1%? Absolutely.

No matter what teaching style you choose to learn, train hard, make it second nature and be confident in your abilities before the thought of using it against someone else crosses your mind.

And do NOT perceive this post as a knock against you in any way. I am just trying to get you to see the "big picture" before you make any decisions that will affect the rest of your life.

Have fun and soak in as much knowledge as you can from these forums, it is a great place to learn.



------------------
C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "
 
Chariot,

I was referring to using or threatening to use the knife against a hoodlum, I did not specificy they had a weapon, I was speaking in general terms. If they have a weapon, they are in fact, threatening you, yes? I was referring to being in what is basically a physical encounter with another person of the same sex and roughly the same size.

Donna is correct in that "Disparity of Force" being an issue at times. If you are a really small guy and the Dude is 6'4" and weighs about 270 and he says he is gonna pound you...I think you have a right to pull the knife, the Court and Jury may think otherwise though. Who knows? That is a Case-by-Case basis. As for someone trying to pull a woman or a man out of a car, they get what is coming to them.

In the real world, outside the Jury Box or Judge's Bench, if I don't cut the guy off of me in the street or the guy trying to pull me out of my car, I might die, so, you have to do what you have to do.

Jailhack is correct when he says you need to make hard, personal decisions regarding really being able to use maiming/lethal force on someone.

As far as LEO's are concerned and their disgusting propensity of drawing weapons anytime dae feel a itty bitty threat...come live in the real fookin world where we are threatened constantly. What a blast we had in the General Forum on the topic of LEO's and their real and/or perceived "safety concerns." Hmmmm...seems the Philly P.D. kicked the sh*t out of someone, I am sure the news will have a field day with that one.

I personally think the criminals are out of control Jailhack, and I also think the LEO's are out of control for the most part too...us Citizens are sitting between them sucking on it like the Vietnamese Villagers did. The VC [criminals] own the night and the LEO's [soldiers] own the day, but we are in the middle and both sides demand choices. The more I see, the less I care for anyone but my Wife, my 4 year old Son and myself, because Law Enforcement as an establishment write tickets to generate revenue, and they constantly lobby against the right of the Citizen to defend themselves. It is relevant.

They can draw their weapon with impunity any time they feel threatened, as a Citizen, it is called brandishing...and LEO's should be held to the same standard.
 
Don,

Like I said, whether the fact that an LEO can brandish a weapon without being subject to the same rules is not by any account OK, but for the most part, it is the way the law is set up. There are however certain times when a show of force (drawn gun) will end a situation. Believe me, there are MANY young and old ones too)LEO's who would crap their pants if someone brandished a weapon against them. They are the ones who think they are the Lone Ranger and are invincible. When it comes time for a reality check, they freeze up, and get hurt. This is why I said a person should train until it is second nature.

As far as being reliant on yourself and your family, I am right there with you. This is one LEO who absolutely believes that EVERYONE (well, except for criminals) should have the right to bear arms and defend themselves. It is your given right as an US citizen, and until this piece of S##t Clinton and his followers get booted, it is only going to get worse
frown.gif


------------------
C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "
 
In order to not lead this Forum and Thread too far astray, I will start a new one in this Forum.
 


There is nothing wrong with trying to learn all you can, but I think you should take a moment, step back and think about what you are looking to accomplish. Do you just want
to play around, do you want to put the time
and effort into training, are you willing to possibly get seriously injured in a fight, are you REALLY prepared to take a life if need be?

** I don't want to play around. I'm willing to train, but I'm not willing to devote my life to training, I do feel that even with minimum training that's better than no training at all. I'm not "willing" to get seriously injured, my intentions is to avoiding it. With a knife and proper training I feel I have a greater chance at that, than being unarmed and untrained. Correct me if I'm wrong.


You stated above that when it comes to brandishing a gun for intimidation, "Cop's do it all the time". Let me explain that if myself or a fellow LEO draws a weapon, it does not constitute Deadly Physical Force, it is considered Physical Force. If yourself or another civilian draws a weapon it immediately constitutes Deadly Physical Force, and if you are not 100% correct in your assumption that the BG is about to inflict SERIOUS physical injury or death, you will be getting booked in at your local police station. Whether that is right or not is not an issue, it is just the way the laws are set up.

** The point is not wether it's legal or not. The point is there's a VALUE in pulling a knife OR gun without using it. It's obvious that it WORKS. I can't see how you can say that pulling a knife without using it is useless. I can see many scenarios where a fight will end just because you TOO got a knife.


As far as being gung ho about getting a knife, that is fine. I love knives and have many different ones. But you must first learn how to handle it, know it's limits, your limits, etc. before you would even consider drawing it to defend yourself. If someone draws a knife on me,(which again is Deadly Physical Force) he had better have every intention on finishing his original thought, because I can guarantee you that I would not think twice about ending the situation permanently. At the point that a knife is drawn it is no longer a game/training, it is deadly serious, and you must be able to strike with precision, and hopefully survive to see the next day.

** Sure, but that's you. You're not the typical BG. Wether I'm a knife expert or not, I would say having a knife against an attacker is better than being unarmed, regardless of training.


While it might seem cool to have a knife and play around with it and learn how to use it, it is still a very dangerous weapon and should be considered as such first and foremost.

** I still think I'm better off with a knife, than without one. How many people would CHOOSE to go unarmed to a fight?

More than likely 99% of the people on these forums will never have to use their knife to defend themselves,and that is a good thing. Should you be prepared in case you are in that other 1%? Absolutely.

** Agree. But getting a knife is a good start to prepare oneself, would be difficult without it...


No matter what teaching style you choose to learn, train hard, make it second nature and be confident in your abilities before the thought of using it against someone else crosses your mind.

And do NOT perceive this post as a knock against you in any way. I am just trying to get you to see the "big picture" before you make any decisions that will affect the rest of your life.

Have fun and soak in as much knowledge as you can from these forums, it is a great place to learn.

** No problem, I appreciate your points.


[/B][/QUOTE]

 
Chariot--

I am a little bit in the same predicament as you as I am new to using knives.

However, I have a bit of MA training and worked as an LEO for a couple of years a long time ago.

It's not easy to talk abt self-defence in a forum. It's a complicated situation with so many variables that it's almost impossible to say what is best to do in any situation. Only by training well and thinking about it for many years will you have any chance of doing the right thing at the right time.

You take 3 years to learn something in a university, perhaps it may take a bit of time to learn about self-defence too.

About brandishing knives for scaring the attacker away, I think, if I firmly believe that someone is going to attack me with deadly force, I won't do any brandishing, I will try to move first to inflict stopping or deadly force on him. Whether your belief is correct will only come from your own ability and experience.

Let's say you argue with a stranger over some inconsequential thing at the supermarket. He grabs you/pushes you, maybe he's going to swing at your face. Do you draw and try to cut him?

You are walking late at night in a deserted area when three guys come out and ask you for money. Your hand is already on your knife in your pocket. Suddenly one of the guys comes right at you. You can't see anything, is he carrying a weapon, it's too dark. What do you do?

Most people have never even been in a situation like an MA competition where the other guy is trying his best to beat you in some manner. They are not used to the emotional control necessary to perform to meet the challenge. They may freeze up from fear or they may become so angry that they lose all control. Either way they lose.

Your quest to become proficient at self- defence will not be an easy one, but nothing worth having usually comes easily.

Best wishes from SYK.
 
SYK,

Very good scenarios.

Chariot,

I understand what you are trying to accomplish, but what happens when the BG pulls out a knife, you pull out yours in an attempt to show that you are not going to be a pushover in this particular incident, and he decides that he is not going to turn and find another victim, but "the fight is on". Are you fully capable of defending yourself? Or would it have better to "run away as fast as you can". Sure, there are times when a show of force might end the situation, but I have seen MANY people that have been cut, and shot because they didn't have enough sense to try and get out of the situation. This is not to say that all situations are unavoidable, they're not. But if at all possible, the best way out is to figure out a way to get out of the situation.

There is a saying that goes "Don't ever let your weapon get away from you". If you try to use a weapon in a fight and the other guy gets it away from you, you are quite possibly a dead man.

Absolutely go out, find a knife you are comfortable with, and TRAIN with it if you intend on ever using it for self defense. You don't have to devote your entire life to it, but a few minutes training once in a while is not going to make it second nature.

Sure, having a little training is probably better than no training at all, but in a REAL fight, there is a REAL danger of coming out on the losing end.

Think about the scenarios that SYK stated above, what would you do? Also,would you pull out your knife on someone that has a gun? These are questions that only you can answer for yourself and hopefully they never become a reality.

Be well, and be safe.

------------------
C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "
 
I think the bottom line is that there is a thin line between being a warrior for the good of your social unit and a punk with a knife. The line lies between brandishing a knife when you could have run, and drawing only to escape from a life threatening situation. It takes maturity and self-knowledge to know where the line is.

The only safe recommendation for any of us to make to you is not to think of your knife as a weapon except in the very utmost extreme. If you live in a truly dangerous environment, and can't get out for whatever reason, study self-defense. Then your knowledge and skill become your weapons and you are far less likely to use a knife inappropriately and wind up in prison or prematurely deceased.

Carrying a knife is no immunity from violence. Just because you carry one doesn't mean someone can't shoot you as you are stepping through a doorway. For myself, and probably a lot of others around here, the knife is not just a weapon, but something that we have a love for independant of self-defense, but we are fighters by nature and study violence in order to meet its perpetrators on even ground should they mistakenly choose us or our families and friends as victims. At that point, we do what we have to do, and since we carry knives anyway, just because we like them, we learn to employ them in defense. We see knives almost entirely as instruments of good, not instruments of violence and intimidation.

I don't think there is anybody here who simply bought a knife to increase their capacity for violence. I would bet that virtually all of us who hang around here regularly have a strong personal moral code that stems from the will to fight against those who would harm us, or perhaps it is the other way around. I seriously doubt that anybody hangs around who just bought a knife to be more bad. I am not saying you did, just that there is a lot more to bladed self-defense than buying a knife and counting on it to intimidate adversaries. For one thing, there is the simple fact that once you escalate a confrontation to the level of deadly weapons, your adversary may call your bluff, and your life is what is at stake. It is not simple. It is a fine line. Come down on one side, and you are a hero. Come down on the other side and you are just another violent criminal, the thing that we loath the most in this world.

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 07-14-2000).]
 
Back
Top