Is Filipino the best?

i never want to disrespect any teachers or style, because i know fighting ability does not know a style or teacher, but what is in that person.

as far as "authetic", anything you make is authentic. if a mexican guy in north dakota makes a style yesterday, it is authentic. it is when he says pilipinos are doing it or this is the ancient style, that is what takes away being authentic. so, while some people like drills, others prefer sparring and hitting patterns, they both can make good fighters. but what is done by most schools in the philippines? not the drills. drills, are an AMERICAN philippine martial art...thats not saying its bad, but dont think most of us are doing it. or that it was brought here. because if you want to find out where "hubad" came from, look at wing chun. "guntings" in every defense, look at ed parkers kenpo. i do not know him, but i believe that danny inosanto made most of those technques, and other teachers follows them, even i followed them when i was young. but never did i say i got them from home or my folks. anybody who ever met me can tell you i learn them from billy bryant, who learn them from danny inosanto. after i left him, i thought, wow, our style sure is missing a lot. i thought my grandfather is just old fashioned when he says he does not like them. when i travel home, nobody knows about them. the more i have seen and read about mr inosanto, i realize, this is HIS style! nothing wrong with that, but they did not come from the philippines. bahala na does not do them, serrada does not do them, mr sarmiento's group does not do them, didnt he learn from them?

so my point is, anything can be authentic, but lets not take something new (twnety or thirty years old) and make it something exported. that is my only point.

when i talk about other people's idea of the philippine art, they put american philippine art in the same category with philippine arts. there is a difference.

dave i agree with you that there are many people who want full contact arts, i talk to them everyday, and most of my students are in that group. i just dont thing that most of the people in the philippine arts are that way, i believe they like to show there stuff, talk tough (this is deadly), make up "new" ideas, and hide behind there knifes. all without looking for something imported, they want what they see in the tapes and the seminars, so the FOBs (fresh of the boat) do not get looked at. i met one guy here in california, he was with a small group in the philippines (i cant remember the name) but now he is doce pares, which is a very good fighting group, but he did it because he knows that will guaratnee him students. but guess what? he's here longer than me, and he still has no school, he teaches in a school, and then by seminars.

when i first started to teach the philippine arts, i had the same problem. i did "southeast asian knife fighting" seminars for jimmy kim ("kim's institute", now kim's karate) all over virginia and maryland, and then i did point sparring classes. then kickboxing classes. in dc they know me more for point fighting and kuoshu. i hated doing the seminars so i took the karate way, now i have a school, so i know you can do it without the seminars.

and it is not true philippine martial arts is taught in mostyl garages. nobody in the p.i. have garages. >)

by the way, i respect many schools, the "other martial arts" post was for empty hand schools, and i respect them all. the ones i remember are the ones i fought against or saw them a lot. pekiti tirsia, lsa(lighting scientific/kidlat), black knights. there are a lot of them, and they all practice the way i am talking about. except some of the pekiti tirsia separate themself from leo gaje, i halfway put him in the category of american arts only because of his compadres.

there is a quran saying, "a good muslim speaks only about what he knows from his experience and his eyes, never his ears". so to answer anybody questions about who is good or who i think is agood fighter, i can only say when i have fought them or i have seen them fight. but experienced fighters can somethimes tell ability when he sees someone move. that is why i defend greg alland whenever somebody puts him down. but anybody else popular in the philippine arts, i havent seen them fight. how many people here who say bruce lee or even danny inosanto (no disrespect) are good fighters? if i sound skeptical of everybody in the philippine arts or i doubt there ability, its because i really do, thats what fighters do, they want to try people out for themself, and they want to test new ideas. for those who say they are philippine martial artists, that is the important tenet of our style to challenge as much as possible. thats how you get better. i have study and finish less than five styles closely, and i only liked two of them. if you look around, probably the best fighters did the same thing. and if someone is serious about it, he will travel to get it. i wanted more philippine martial arts, so i went home to the p.i. when i was boxing i travel, even for a few days only to train at different gyms. now i am grappling, and i travel one hour each way to do it. i can go to a seminar, but i dont think those guys have the same seriousness about it that i do. so i understand seminars might be the only way to get it in your area, but if you are on the east coast, you have raffy pambuan in florida, bobby taboada in north carolina, grag in virginia, alice baugh in virginia, mr chai, mr marinas, dong cuesta and the mayo family in new york. in the midwest there is mr lastra (i forgot the state) and mrs. ruby in texas. then west coast you have people all over california and washington state. they say if there is a will, there is a way. if you dont travel, there must be no will.

i am getting long, so i will just say that for me origin is important, only for pride sake. honesty should be important for everybody. most of what i am talking about is not the technique of the art, but the spirit and the _attitude_. there are so many techniques and different fighting methods in the philippines, but the philosophy is the same with almost everybody, we focus on the end result, the bottom line. we like efficiency, and we have way to get it. if people add this and that, that's okay, that is how we got the art today. but strong basics, how to hit, how to move, how to react. those are what we have in common, not how many different variations we can come up with. and before a man becomes a teacher (sorry donna, a woman too). he has to fight. then the community knows that he knows what he is doing and he earned his respect. i dont believe that is happening here. and there's my problem. i feel like i earn my respect, and i want other people to earn it the pilipino way, if they say they are doing the PHILIPPINE martial arts.
 
This should really start over on its own thread instead of being buried on the 5th page of this one. It is a great discussion.

I remember a well known Filipino Kalistador saying that the way his teacher taught him was by showing him a block one time, then hitting him hard and repeatedly until he was able to do the block successfully. Now that's real FMA (ha, haa)!
smile.gif


Seriously, I don't care if you call it real FMA or not, I like the drills that we do. I learn a lot from them that shows when I flow spar or free spar. The important thing is that at least part of the time, somebody is swinging a stick, or a practice sword, or a fist at you full hump, and you have to block and effectively counter (lock and block, counter for counter). Anything that prepares you for that training is good for you.

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 09-29-2000).]
 

TalkShowBlade- Your experience stinks of reality. I have been accosted a number of times, but rather than tell the ones that came out more heroic, I often humble myself and tell the time I just weighed the options, gave the muggers $20 and considered it a lesson learned. That is reality. Sometimes you just fook up and you pay the price. You are lucky if it is only money. I was caught slippin and I paid my dues that time in the least expensive way.


Referring to the content of the middle part of this long five-page thread (which I just read the whole of),
At first I was not sure what all the dissin on FMA was, until I realized that some people out there must be really screwing it up. The FMA I have seen and dealt with is nothing but the real thing (gloriously bastardized by JKDC, and very effective), but the FMA got all popular on us and now the moneymakers (read "cornerstore TKD dojo with flashy trophies and uniforms") are coming out and diluting it for the mainstream.
I only have one experience with that and that is a "student of Escrima" that was showing me his moves. They were pathetic: upward blocks with sticks, and reverse punches in a deep horse stance. I was like "what the hell is that, Karate with sticks?". That is exactly what it was. Obviously he was taught by one of these people that thinks if you take an Escrima seminar and incorporate it into your karate system, then you are teaching Escrima. I am thankful to say all of my teachers are the real deal, and have seen the elephant.


Certain people have a way of screwing up anything. Someone can even screw up Kali if they teach it all wrong (read "improper attitude") and forget the whole point. Fortunately I have not experienced this, but I can believe it after seeing what happened to the other martial arts decades ago. In fact, I have never trained at a school since I got into the serious arts, I have always trained in alleys, multi-level parking structures, fields and home garages. (As an aside, I have found Inosanto to be an excellent and serious teacher, whether or not some people from other schools would call him "pure" or not....those are never ending arguments in every martial art and I tend to not care for such quibbling. Just keep in mind that there are always two sides to every story and in the end it doesn’t really matter anyway. I just like to train hard for me, not obsess over the details.)

I went to a seminar put on by a VERY top notch Kali instructor (directly from the Philippines) in the US and they put on a little dance for us to heavy metal music in their shiny Kali outfits complete with sychronization and showmanship knife flipping etc. I thought "isn't that cute, when do we start kicking ass?".
Is this the direction that the FMA is going? Even the "pure" schools are bowing to the almighty dollar and turning the art of killing into a flashy fun camp for wannabes? Let me know, because I don't get out much, I prefer to train than keep up on social events in the commuinity.


I also fully agree with Mac's gripe about people that wear their master and lineage like a badge (as seen in my example in the paragraphs above). So many times people come up to me and tell me that they are studying under so-and-so and he studied under so-and-so who invented this-and-that and therefore their art is the real thing blah blah blah. So what? I know the real thing when I see it, not when you tell me about it. It isn't handed down and imparted to you like the Holy Spirit from Elija to Elisha, you gotta earn it and put the work in. (sidenote: I wrote this before I even got to this page, so it is not directed at anyone here, but at Mac's comments).
Any martial art, no matter how pure, can be screwed up beyond recognition if practiced by half hearted people (possibly read "wimps" or "non warriors"?). I don't care about the lineage, let's get to work on the mat, drip some sweat and you can show me what you got. Know what I mean?

I had one student come in who was an instructor in his school. He told me all about how his instructor's instructor fought in a tournament in the East with some real bad dude and how his instructor's instructor had not thrown a single punch for 5 minutes while he studied his oppenent and then in one punch he knock the guy out blah blah blah... First thing I did (same thing I always do) to warm up is have him hit me. Then I hit him, all with good reason in the course of training. Afterward, he told me that "he was shocked and stunned being hit because he never had been hit in the face before". Good Lord! You should be able to sue your instructor for malpractice if you have been training the better part of ten years and you have never been hit in the face, nor hit anyone else above the shoulders. That is "street defense training"?
Okay, I'll stop before I really start ranting....

....I shouldn't post after SoCo.


Forever a student, and always looking to learn and grow,
thaddeus
 
Originally posted by Marc Animal MacYoung:


Have you ever walked into an aikido school? It is interesting to see the difference in teaching techniques. In the aikido schools I have been in, the beginners and advanced students are doing the same moves. You are taught the move right off, now work towards perfecting it. This as opposed to "here are the basics, now we move onto other more cool and flashy stuff."[/B]
Click to expand...

How many Aikido guys have you ever met who couldn't fight before they took Aikido, and now can, because of it?
 
Wow, looks like I caught the tail end of this great post, and so many great threads. It's about time. I have not seen any of Marc McYoungs videos, but I plan on it. I heard he is very good. I think videos are a plus for anyones library, as long as they are good ones.Books as well. Seminars, iceing on the cake, but it always best to find a good teacher if it is at all possible. If not, make occasional road trips. Some of the best teachers/fighters in the world all had to travel to learn. It all depends on how bad you want it. Go to lagit people. I see all kinds of boneheads selling tapes,"Learn to be a knife fighter, buy my videos or come to my seminars. 9 times out of 10 that person has never even been in a knife fight. If you've never been in a knife fight, how can you be a knife fighter? If I train in boxing, am I now a boxer, or do I just train in boxing? Get the idea?

About filipino arts, or silat, both are very good. I'm lucky to have had very authentic teachers in both styles. Both know the realities of the knife. Both stress empty hands as well as the blades, they are equally important.

I'm not to hip on the Presas styles. To me, Modern Arnis is the fast food syle of filipino arts. Just a whole lot of stuff thrown on a bun, looks good, but health wise not very good for you.

Gaje is good, but he talks to much. He is a big b-s er. Now he claims to be the Pendeker of Mustikwa Kwitang silat. I guess he never heard of Pak Jim Ingram. Pak Ingram is not my teacher, but I know him, and he is the real thing. Since when did Gaje get into silat, and he is already a Pendekar? He is now in business with the ever famous William Sanders, the comic book silat master. If Gaje wants to get back in the good graces of all the teachers, he needs to drop the Sanders connection. Nobody takes that guy serious.

If you want to be good, train with good people. Look for experience, sometimes experience is the best teacher. Also, there is more to fighting then just the physical. I'm talking about fear, stress, excitement, confusion, adrenalin rush, so on. Alot of teachers forget about all that. They forget to mention under these conditions you will forget most of what you've been taught anyway.

regards,
salamat,
party on,

breaker

 
I came in late on some interesting posts on Filipino knive work. Here is an excerpt from an article that I wrote for the Pekiti-Tirsia International newsletter about some of the legal, moral and tactical implications of defending yourself with a weapon. In addition, you can visit the PTI web site (http://www.pekiti-tirsia.com)and read the text of an article of mine that was published in the August 1999 issue of Inside Kung-Fu magazine on the subject of Filipino knife fighting. You'll find a link to the article on the bottom of the start page. The title is "A knife is not a sword."

Regards,
Tuhon Bill McGrath

THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT

LEGAL: Laws very from state to state, but a few paragraphs from the Penal Law of the State of New York should give you a general idea of the legal thinking on the issue (obviously you will need to consult with an experienced local attorney for the particulars in your state).

Some pertinent parts of the law which should interest us are:

Justification; General. Article 35 of the N.Y.State Penal Law states, in part: “...conduct which would otherwise constitute an offense is justified and not criminal when:...such conduct is necessary as an emergency measure to avoid an imminent public or private injury which is about to occur by reason of a situation occasioned or developed through no fault of the actor, and which is of such gravity that, according to ordinary standards of intelligence and morality, the desirability and urgency of avoiding such injury clearly outweigh the desirability of avoiding the injury sought to be prevented by the statute defining the offense in issue.

A person may...use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by another person, unless:
(a) The latter’s conduct was provoked by the actor himself with the intent to cause physical injury to another person; or
(b) The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case his use of physical force is justified if he has withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the use or threatened imminent use of unlawful physical force...”

Deadly Physical Force (DPF): Definition: “physical force which, under the circumstances in which it was used, is readily capable of causing death or other serious physical injury”.
Physical injury is defined as: impairment of physical condition or substantial pain”.
Serious physical injury is defined as “physical injury which crates a substantial risk of death, or which causes death or serious and protracted disfigurement, protracted impairment of heath or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily organ.”

Deadly Weapon vs. Dangerous Instrument: In New York State law the “Deadly Weapons” definition includes firearms and a number of weapons such as gravity knives, blackjacks, daggers, etc, which the law classifies as illegal for civilians to carry in public.
“Dangerous instrument” is defined as “any instrument, article or substance , including a vehicle, which, under the circumstances in which it was used, attempted to be used, or threatened to be used, is readily capable of causing death or other serious physical injury. Therefore a switchblade in the pocket of a person is an illegal deadly weapon in New York while a can of oven spray in your grocery bag is not. However should a mugger use a can of oven spray to blind his victim, he can be charged with the possession of a dangerous instrument in addition to the robbery and assault charges (much like a burglar being charged with “possession of burglar’s tools” if he uses a rock to break a window and gain entry). Be warned, among the NY state case annotations one finds: “there are no circumstances when justification can be a defense to the crime of criminal possession of a weapon...Justification is not a defense to illegal possession of a weapon”. All else being equal, using a plain looking pocketknife that is of legal size in a self defense situation will look much less suspicious to the police and district attorney’s office than using a model that looks like a “combat knife” in the exact same circumstances.

Article 35 goes on to state: “A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person unless:
(a) He reasonably believes that such other person is using or is about to use deadly physical force (against himself or a third party). Even in such cases the actor may not use deadly physical force if he knows that he can, with complete safety as to himself and others, avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating: except that he is under no duty to retreat if he is:
(i) In his dwelling and not the initial aggressor:
(ii) A police or peace officer (acting in his official capacity)
(b) He reasonably believes that such other person is committing or is about to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible sodomy or robbery: or
(c) He reasonably believes that such other person is about to commit a burglary...(of an occupied dwelling) This is an area that varies widely from state to state. In some states you can stop any burglary with DPF and in others you are only justified in using DPF in an occupied dwelling at night (a daytime burglar is seeking to avoid the home’s occupants. A nighttime burglar expects to encounter occupants, and is prepared for that). (Note: The “need to retreat” doctrine is one of the areas in self-defense law that varies widely from state to state).


FINANCIAL: I tell my students this; “If someone attempts to assault you and you defend yourself; even when no charges are filed against you by the police, the other person can still file a lawsuit against you saying that you were really the one who started the fight. Now let’s say you won the lawsuit and not one dime is awarded in the other guy’s favor. Unless you have a very good insurance policy (such as an umbrella policy ) you will still have to put out something in the neighborhood of $7,000 to $10,000 to hire a lawyer to defend yourself from the lawsuit (the other guys pays nothing, his lawyer gets paid only if he wins).

MORAL: I will be turning 40 this year. When I look back on all the stupid things I did when I was in my teens and twenties I think it was only my mother’s prayers that kept me out of prison or a casket. Speaking to other guys my age I don’t think I’m the only one who feels this way. Young men have an instinctive desire once they hit a certain age to test their courage and strength. This can get them into trouble if they don’t have a safe outlet for their aggression or no good male role model at home (and in my case, even when they do). As for adults doing stupid things, remember one does not have to take an I.Q. test to father children. The drunk coming at you in a bar might have small children at home who love and depend on him. If it’s a choice between your kids growing up without a father and his, well your responsibility is to your own kids first, just make damn sure you have no other choice in what you do. Remember, whatever you end up doing to an attacker, you still want to be able to sleep at night afterwards. You’ll sleep better knowing you did only what you had to do and no more.

TACTICAL: When dealing with a street confrontation what is best legally, financially and morally also happens to be what is best tactically. The law states that you should do only as much damage to an aggressor as necessary to stop the attack or allow your escape. That is the best path to follow tactically as well. One of the principles of combat is that the second opponent you don’t see is the one most likely to hurt you. In Pekiti-Tirsia we always assume that we are fighting more than one opponent, therefore we can’t spend much time on opponent #1. Think of your ability to deliver techniques as ammunition in the magazine of a firearm. If you are ambushed and empty your gun into the first attacker you see, you will be in bad shape when attackers 2, 3 and 4 appear. Time is also a facture. Spend too much time pummeling bad guy # 1 and you might turn around to find bad guy # 2 standing behind you with your blood already on his knife and a wet feeling running down your back.
Essentially you are under two tactical constraints on the street; Time (where are the other bad guys and how quickly can they get to you?) and Personal Endurance & Power (how much “ammo” is in your magazine and what is the caliber?). Combat firearms instructors have taught me three principles to use in a firefight. 1. When close to cover, “get to cover, then shoot”. 2. When far from cover, “shoot little, move much” (towards cover). 3. And when cornered without cover, “shoot yourself a hole, then charge through it” (towards cover). Change “cover” to “escape route” and you have some good principles for hand, stick or knife combat as well.

SUMMARY: In a nutshell, you can improve your odds of keeping yourself legally, financially, morally and tactically safe if you don’t ask yourself “Can I do this?”, but rather “Must I do this?” Do only what you must and no more.

 
Hey everyone! This isn't the "Kuntawman", I'm his younger brother Luis (you know, the good looking one with the excellent fighting skills!).

I am luuvvin' this place! I've only read it a few times, but there is some great **** here!

The Philippine fighting arts ARE the best, that's why every so-called "practical/realistic/hand-to-hand/you name it" expert out there does it! That's why our school has more former black belts than any other school in our city! When you want rank, go to the karates and tkds, but when you want to beat someone's ass, come see a Pilipino!

Check out this site http://www.filipinolinks.com/sports/martial.html
There are tons of links to the PMAs (including our own, which was built by moi".

GFC students from DC, Baltimore and Dallas: WAZZAP!

Oh, and if you really want to learn how to kick butt, go to a SCHOOL! Honestly, would you want to have a SEMINAR trained DOCTOR try to save your life? I have only studied the arts seriously for three years, but I can tell you guys that we have not seen ANY seminar-trained bozos come around that could really do any damage (barely saw any that were willing to put on the gear, doh!). My philosophy is, the seminar and videotape business is for the guys who want the easy way out. If you meet a hot babe on the Net, you'd travel two or three hours to meet her, wouldn't you? Well, we have die hard warriors who do that every month to train, so lack of instructors is no excuse if you really want to learn...

Peace out!
 
Well, breaker is right. If you want to be good, you need to go to a good teacher. I'm not one who believes in seminars. I believe that seminars are reserved for people who are training in that art and wants to gatehr techniques. From that point on int their training, they still need the eyes and ears of a trained Guro. Without it, all is a mess. They go through the mechanics of a techniques, not realizing its tru applications.
Besides, a lot of "seminarian" should stay where they are at, in the Seminary not in public.
I do not doubt that a lot of these guys can fight. My Issue with them is that the art gets lost. Can one fight and have the ART, of course. Can one fight and not have the ART, of course. It is better to FIGHT with the ART.
As for Leo Gaje, that's the first I heard that he does Silat??? Ewan ko.

I like what thekuntawman's little brother; Luis said. Good analogy. The problem at times even with FMA is that a lot of these coming out FMA practitioners, of Filipino descent are Frauds.
Arnisadors here in TO are the same. A lot of fake *** goes around. These are older poeple, in their 50's, with various school degrees, and Doctorate's claiming certain styles are theirs when they go to seminars and take notes. Besides, all these guys haven't produced any quality student. What would be cool is to have a Hamon or Reto for these people who take the easy way out in training and totally commercialize the FMA. FMA then becomes a commodity. That suck. As the say in Filipino "Reto tayo."

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Chariot,
With all due respect, I am a bit alarmed by your attitude about weapons. The addition of a weapon into a situation escalates it by a huge measure. The addition of more weapons escaletes it beyond that.
I frequently tell people who do not have a lot of experience that it might be better for them to refrain from arming themselves. You see, the only thing in greater danger, in a tense situation, than someone who can't defend themself is someone who can't defend themself and thinks they can. Worse still is the poor soul who can't defend themself, thinks they can AND tries to employ a weapon.
An unnaccomplished or undertrained individual can take a dangerous situation and make it deadly by trying to use a weapon. Admittedly, no one wants to be at a B.G.'s mercy, but at least the situation may not escalate beyond the loss of mere material items or pride. The situation's rules change when threat to life and limb occurs, but that is far less likely to occur without the presence of ego-driven heroics.
Here is some food for thought. A student takes their knife with them for a walk. They walk by an ally where a B.G. demands their wallet at knife point. Student draws knife. B.G.'s mindset changes from "Gee. I think I want their money" to "Oh God! A knife!! I'm in danger! KILL!!" or "A knife, huh?!?! YOU'RE DEAD!"
Please, be careful that your pride doesn't obscure your understanding of reality and your capabilities. There is no need for one to get injure for their pride and some "Dirty Harry" complex that we, as a society, have. It's okay to give up your wallet and run. Things can be replaced, a life cannot.


 
Kilugan1:

I won't respond to your posts, the reasons are:

a) even though I originally created this big thread (130 posts!) my recent posts to this conference has been deleted, I don't want to to spend time on a reply only to find it deleted seconds later.

b) I saw what you wrote about me, behind my back, with that kind of behaviour don't expect me to have a conversation with you.
 
Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje is a REAL Pendekar, since in the 80's he went to Indonesia and trained with a lot of the oldtimer pendekars there. And before that, in the late 70's and early 80's he met Suryadi "Crazy Eddie" Jafri, also a Pendekar himself. He is therefore an authentic pendekar of pentjak silat.

IMO, there is no other knife fighter in the world who can kick Tuhon Gaje's ass in real combat.

www.TexasKali.org
 
Don't be taken in by the many complexities of some FMA systems taught today. It doesn't take formal training to use a knife! Any determined, drugged, crazed person with violent intent can maim or kill you...no ands, if, or buts.

I am not a hater of FMA. I too have been training formally for many years. However, you need to balance the lessons on "use" with lessons of "defense". Only a percentage of the defenses taught in FMA are practical for today’s society. Why not get the best of both Worlds? IMO…you will not be complete unless you train in Reality Based Self-Defense or Military Combatives with notable instructors. Such individuals will educate you on the most important aspects of Self-Defense, Psychology and the Criminal Mindset!

In a REAL knife altercation remember this, it is not the skill of your assailant but shear determination and your “will to survive” is your only true defense…skill is secondary.

John
BAKBAKAN International
 
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