Is it foolish to be a steel snob? (not the BF member)

GrinderMcgee pretty much described what I was going to say. It's not so much a matter of what steel is used in a knife, but rather the heat treat and blade geometry that determine how a knife performs. Buck's 420hc is a fine steel for most of my needs, especially since the blades tend to be hollow ground.

For most of my EDC tasks, I like a 2-3" blade, less than 2mm thick, and either full flat or hollow ground, and either wharncliffe, clip, or drop-point. For larger tasks, a blade of 4-6", 2.5-3.0mm thick, either clip or drop-point.
 
I think steel choice means less than the way it's heat treated. ;)

If it's done right you really wouldn't beable to tell the difference in 440C, S30V, S90V, VG10, and CPM 154 when using it.

AUS8 and VG-1 (Will rival VG-10) are excellent steels if done right also. ;)
 
Steel choice is a factor in my decision making process but is less of a consideration than size, blade shape, ergonomics and fit & finish. I'd like to say that heat treat and edge geometry are more important too but am not expert enough to ascertain that in a knife I am considering purchasing. Also, in actual use, I find it difficult to really say with certainty that one steel is "better" than another. I am slowly gaining experience in actual use though. That is why I come to BF, to learn from the experts and then apply it or validate it in my usage.
 
I have 3 factory knives of different steels that all hold an edge very similar. A bM710 in D2, a BM556 in 154cm and a cheap Cabelas fixed blade the is said to be 420. I don't believe that he cabelas knife is 420 and if it is it's the magical perfect heat treat and edge geometry. I also have a knife I made myself out of 5160 and had HT at Knifemaker.ca. The homemade knife is in between the D2 and 154cm for easy of sharpening and the reportedly 420 will sharpen in half the time of the 154CM.
I think that the average knife user, like myself, will never truly notice the benefits of the super steels other then the time it takes to get them sharp.

Now for the reasoning on my thought that the cheap fixed blade isn't 420. I also was given a cabelas sawtooth folder. It is 420 as well and you can sharpen it to hair whittling sharp in no time but will only make a few cuts before you can see the edge deform, same thing with my Canadian forced folder, also made from 420
 
Seems like this topic has been banged around a lot here, with staunch defenders appearing (in the finest BF tradition) to mark their territory and defend their preference.

Since that hasn't happened yet, I'll toss in my .02.

I think we are all lucky has hell to have the opportunity to research, compare opinions, read reviews and select the steels we want. If you have a lot of knives, then you probably have favorites for different tasks. In my case that extends to the steel in the knife.

In the hot, sweaty, south Texas summer I can rust 1095 shut in a day. For me, using a knife as a tool means I don't want to baby it so I don't want to come home after a long day on site and dump my pockets out and have to oil my knife. For a summer EDC work knife, the mid range stainless knives (say 8CrMoV or AUS8) are perfect. The hold a respectable edge, but can be sharpened with a couple of licks. They don't rust. I can cut, pry, chip, use them with heavy solvents, etc., and they don't show to be worse for wear.

OTOH, I wouldn't do that to my S110V Shallot. She's too expensive to use as a small pry bar or a chipper.

In the winter I carry D2 to work. When I am not at work (or it is cold weather), I have a couple of old CASE carbons that I have had for 30 years that I still like to carry. If I go out, I have a couple of "peanuts" that are AUS6 (and whatever CASE actually uses on their older stainless) that will retain an edge fairly well, but sharpen up well enough on the pen blade to notch my cigars.

When I go hiking, I like my Kershaw JYDII comp blade. Great stainless corrosion resistance with a D2 edge.

I like to match the steel to the job, and am glad to have the choices available to do it. This is a great time to be a knife nut.

Robert
 
singularity35 said:
A question please. ok so heat treat is the thing. now are there any knives made by the major companies with premium steels that have bad heat treat? if not then it would stand to follow that premium steels by the major companies always have good heat treat, my noobie speculation.
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You can´t always count from the steel grade to it´s quality heat treatment.

Some makers offer a "hype - steel" with no own experience.

Some makers often take new steel grades and o their best to get them to maximum performence. Not always does that work.

You have to read or listen, what ppl. have experienced and how experiences may vary. Varying experiences may be a sign of changing quality.

Beside that: Makers information about hardness will give a hint too. On most steel grades, the higher the better. More general: A high alloyed steel grade performs very good between HRC 58 and 61.

If higher toughness is needed, a different steel grade is the way to go.

Some makers have their "home - steel grade". In addition with good reports and at a hogh hardness (above HRC 58) a good choice, no matter if it´s AUS8a, 154CM, S30V, VG10.
 
I find that my premium steel and non-steel blades hold an edge much longer than the lower end stuff. I like that. They take longer to sharpen, but wear resistance in is wear resistance out. With superior edge holding, I can do more sharpening on the bench and less in the field.
 
I think it also depends on what you'll be using it for. For the average daily task I would be happy with just about any steel. For cutting carpet or cardboard repetitively it would make sense to choose a suitable steel. I've used INFI in a long blade for chopping and slashing that I know would chip or quickly dull, if not shatter a lesser steel of the same thickness and edge geometry.
Case in point: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727886
 
Even though I've recently just gotten into knives I did hours of reading here at blade forums and other websites before getting my first "real" knife (aka not a 420 or 440a steel that costs $1-$15) a para-military. Since then I've tried to make it a point to get each new knife in a different steel and tried to only get knives with edge retention of 154cm and higher, so far I have H1, S30V, ZDP-189, 8CR13MOV, N690CO, CPM-M4, CTS-XHP, 52100 (SR-101), A2. I haven't really gotten enough time with CTS-XHP or M4 to form an opinion. However, so far I haven't really liked my ZDP-189 that much, it might be different though if it were a flat grind though like the stretch instead of the delica. However, it wasn't as bad as I was expecting to sharpen either on a regular sharpmaker w/o diamond stones. One that I have really liked however is the N690Co, great edge retention, much better than I was expecting and very easy to sharpen. I'd say its up there with S30V in my experience. (Its on the benchmade monochrome). H1 edge retention isn't that impressive, but I do have a plain edge and it is very easy to sharpen, its mostly just my swimming knife so it doesn't have to have amazing edge retention anyway.
 
I do not think heat treat and geometry are more important than steel choice. The user can change the geometry if they want to improve cutting performance or edge durability, so it is not an initial consideration, at least to people who spend enough money and have enough interest to be steel snobs in the first place :) Heat treat is important, but how? Would you rather properly treated S30V or 440C? Or properly treated 440C and bad S30V? Or vice versa? Or proper S30V & bad S30V? Basically, you always want a good heat treat, and the difference really is the steel itself. Heat treat will affect toughness, corrosion resistance, wear resistance, and more, but only within the limits of the alloying content. The best heat treat will not make the best 3V as stain resistant as average 420J2, nor will it make the best 420J2 as tough as average 3V.
 
hardheart that is an interesting point. I would also like to add where some steals were adapted by the knife industry from other sources (tools, machines, etc.) Some steels like s30v were specifically crafted for the cutlery industry. Thus maximizing the edge retention and sharpness that a good knife needs.
 
For years (decades) you couldn't get me to use a stainless blade. The performance of those steels were so horrible I couldn't stand em.

Today I have a couple blades in the super steels and am impressed by their performance.

However I still prefer the quality of edge and edge holding capabilities of 52100, 1095, and 5160 more.

I'm with the others here who have stated that heat treat is much more important than steel choice. Most all of my blades have a full flat grind with a convexed final edge.
 
I've been a fan of S30V lately. I know that every steel has its ups and downs, but I like that stuff that needs to be sharpened less often. A knife that needs to be sharpened less often will lose material more slowly, and therefore last longer.
 
We're all spoiled these days.
I remember when 440 (forget A, B, or C) was THE steel to have, back in the 80's.
Now, even the "crap" steels are generally better, even though those "horrible" knives from the 80's are still going strong.
No "best" steel; just the best steel for certain jobs.:cool:
 
dookie1481 said:
So why do I have such a tough time buying anything "below" S30V? Does anyone else feel the same way?
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It's your money that you spent your time earning for your hobby of accumulating and using (which is different from collecting) very cool knives. If S30V is your personal standard and more exotic alloys are preferred, go for it!
 
We all have our reasons for buying and using what we do - go with whatever makes you happy. You do, however, run the risk of missing out on what you'd end up finding out to be some terrific knives because they use an "inferior" steel.
 
As the heat treat horse is already dead, I'll agree with the useage part of the argument. When I was first seriously getting into knives I bought a really nice dagger, and paid an extra $50 to have S30V instead of CMP154, because I thought "S30V was the super steel." But as someone pointed out to me, it was a waste of money. S30V is great for edge retention, something I did not need on a dagger. Same idea when I bought a small Bud Neely knife. It was not going to be an EDC, it was designed as a small self defense knife (not that I ever actually carry it), no need for S30V.
 
Foolish to be a steel snob? That's tough to answer. It's foolish to pay too much for a piece of crap knife with sub-standard materials. It's foolish to not-capitalize on a good bargain; a product that offers the right materials, quality control, and ergonomics for a particular task -- at the right price-point.

In my experience -- my steel snobbery died when I started getting into swords, and large fixed-blades. Don't get me wrong -- I love S30v, S90v, ZDP-189, M4 -- but, watch me strop a dulled -- but masterfully differentially heat-treated 1060 -- zero-ground hamaguri edged tanto to the point where I can shave off (at least part of) my beard with it -- or chop through a 2x4 with no significant damage -- and you'll start to know the score.

That said -- you'll develop a new sort of more-articulate snobbery. And you'll spend your money better.

But -- as far as I can tell -- Benchmade, Spyderco, Kershaw, Sog and Cold Steel all have great heat-treatment; and you know what kind of geometry you're getting and if it's going to be right for your intended task.

If all that's different between two very similar knives is the steel -- and the price isn't that different -- go with the better one; unless the ergos are superior on the inferior-material knife. The LLC Magnum is one example of that sort of knife.
 
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