Is it necessary for collectors to be honorable?

To me personal integrity in all aspects of life, including collecting and giving away or selling, IS ALWAYS DOING WHAT IS RIGHT, EVEN WHEN NO ONE ELSE KNOWS OR IS WATCHING. Those that choose to cheat, or act dishonorably will suffer the consequences of their actions. It is true: What goes around, comes around.
 
brownshoe said:
Collectors are not honorable. They are motivated by lust and if they are collector/dealers, they are motivated by lust and greed. Both are "sins" in most religions.
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Thanks for the gross generalization, at least we know what motivates you.
 
Some collectors are honorable until it comes to that one special piece. Then they'll use anything legal to their ends.

What's a collector's best score? Taking for $20 in Grandma's pre-nursing home garage sale, that Scagel hunting knife she's had in the basement since her father died. That's a colector's dream, but still rips off Grandma who needs the money much more than the collector needs either their money or the knife. If you knowingly steal from a little old lady and justify your actions by "she should have known what it's worth" does that make you any less of a thief? Spread good karma, it might come back. :)

It's already been said, if you ask collector, as a friend, to buy a knife for you at a show, they'll do it unless the knife is so hot they want it for themselves. That's honorable?

How many collectors, when asked by a neophyte for an appraisal of a knife the collector lusts after, give a true estimated price? Or do they give a price think they can get away with to buy the knife?

Someone on this forum posted about how his dad taught him aboout the honesty of collectors and dealers. If I remember the story correctly, his dad gave him (teen) an antique pistol and sent him through a gun show asking people for opinions and prices, but not to sell. Not one price was correct, they were all low. Only one honest dealer/collector told him it was worth a lot of money and he should have it appraised by more than one person and sold proffessionally or at auction.

Honest collectors? Not when lust and greed get ratcheted up.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Speak for yourself.

I'm a collector. You say collectors are not honorable. Therefore you are saying that I'm not honorable. Is that correct?
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Keith, I've done business with you and I can say that you are very honorable, and your honor should not be in question here.

It's when some guy from Timbuktu wants to pay $10,000 for a $2,000 dollar knife with a postal money order and have you send him the knife and send back the extra $8,000 with a Western Union money transfer that may not be so honorable. ;)
 
The short answer is yes. At least to the point that a collector need to do what he says to do. When you strike a deal on a knife or place an order with a maker you need to do what you say you are going to do. If your opinion is asked you should be honest no matter what the circumstances. If greed motivates you, it would be better for you to get out of knife collection.

(I am not sure who brownshoe hangs around, but in 20+ years of serious knife collecting it has been rare for me to meet the types he describes and it is the more the norm for me to meet people who I trust.) I expect the norm.

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Edited to add.
I collect slipjoints and a lot of my friends also collect them and do not see any dishonor in buying a knife for them at a show they are unable to attend. I have a lot of wonderful and very desirable knives in my collection that I would not have if it were not for fellow friends in the knife world. Some of whom collect the same type of stuff that I do.

I do not see dishonor in adding to my collection if one of my friends wants the same thing I do at the same time, there have been occasions when I have let the friend (or in a couple of occasions some one I did not know) go first and there have been times when I went first since I was there to make the actual decision and purchase the knife.

If you do not see honor among makers and collectors as a norm, you need to get out more and meet some true participants in the realm rather than the ones on the fringes looking to make a buck before anything else.
 
brownshoe, I resent your inference. You talk about what some people do and then try to make it appear that all collectors are like the ones you describe. I know many collectors, and know very few that are like the ones you use as examples.

Tai, those aren't collectors, those are flimflam artists.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
brownshoe, I resent your inference. You talk about what some people do and then try to make it appear that all collectors are like the ones you describe. I know many collectors, and know very few that are like the ones you use as examples.

Tai, those aren't collectors, those are flimflam artists.
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Yep.

However, the reason I said in my original post that "no, it isn't necessary for them to be honorable", is because that as long as the transaction goes through, I don't really care what they do with the rest of their time. That's not my problem.

My business policies are designed to protect myself and my customers.
 
In light of the other thread however,... I do think it would be beneficial if collectors assumed certain responsibilities after the transaction is made. It would help if all collectors were "honorable".
 
brownshoe said:
Some collectors are honorable until it comes to that one special piece. Then they'll use anything legal to their ends.

What's a collector's best score? Taking for $20 in Grandma's pre-nursing home garage sale,
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A collector's best score is a handmade piece by a great meaker, with the collector's input on the design--knowing that this unique piece of cutlery/art was made just for me.

Your description doesn't fit anyone that I know personally or have met through these forums.
 
brownshoe said:
Honest collectors? Not when lust and greed get ratcheted up.
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Brownshoe, perhaps your motivation is greed and lust. I think that I am enthusiastic about knives--but greed and lust?

Your blanket condemnation of custom knife collectors as underhanded thieves who would greedily cheat starving widows and orphans leads me to strongly believe that you have no place on these forums. Certainly not the custom forums. If you despise us that deeply, why do you hang around here? To teach us morality? I hardly think that you are qualified.
 
Tai Goo said:
In light of the other thread however,... I do think it would be beneficial if collectors assumed certain responsibilities after the transaction is made. It would help if all collectors were "honorable".
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I must have missed something. Could you please tell me which "certain responsibilities"? (Not meant to be argumentative, just curious as to your opinon.)
 
Tai Goo said:
Yep.

However, the reason I said in my original post that "no, it isn't necessary for them to be honorable", is because that as long as the transaction goes through, I don't really care what they do with the rest of their time. That's not my problem.

My business policies are designed to protect myself and my customers.
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If collectors are out there lying and instigating dishonorable practices, it can have a negative effect on the knife industry in general thus a negative impact on makers.
 
shaldag said:
I must have missed something. Could you please tell me which "certain responsibilities"? (Not meant to be argumentative, just curious as to your opinon.)
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From what they've said,... to recognize and preserve, and also to support, promote, influence and encourage. At least that's what I'm getting.

They also need to be fare in the market place if they are so concerned about resale and money...
 
brownshoe said:
Collectors are not honorable. They are motivated by lust and if they are collector/dealers, they are motivated by lust and greed. Both are "sins" in most religions.
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brownshoe:
Let me see if I have this right. A collector is motivated by lust and therefore not honorable, and collector/dealers
are motivated by both lust and greed.
No chance you would find a collector who is also greedy or a collector/dealer who is only motivated by lust.
Thanks, you made everything so clear.

In my fifty-some years on this planet I find the same cross section of humanity in all walks of life. The percentage
of scoundrels is pretty much the same wherever you go and whatever you do. Even among the religious types.
Now, if you go back to your holy books and 'sin' lists, you might find your own behavior covered there.

Yes, it is a round world, what goes around comes around.
 
Good discussion in these two interlocking threads.:)

Tai Goo said:
From what they've said,... to recognize and preserve, and also to support, promote, influence and encourage. At least that's what I'm getting.
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Tai,
I think that's a very good summary for collectors in any of the arts.
The artist does generate the interest and the following first; collectors who commission, and who may also be collaborators, come after.
Collaboration in many of the arts is common, and for some, essential. It is a challenge for the artist to hold to their 'way of seeing and doing' regardless of the input or circumstance. But that same struggle was faced in finding your 'way' in the first place.


Tai Goo said:
They also need to be fare in the market place if they are so concerned about resale and money...
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I think most true collectors are motivated by the artists' work first. I don't see how you follow and pursue the work of any artist(s) unless you are actually interested in the work. There are better ways to earn money. (Didn't I hear that from a maker?:) )

As far as being "so concerned about resale and money," I don't think you meant that in a harsh way. But I do believe that most collectors face similar issues of financial responsibility just as makers do.

Money is a store of value. Collectors choose to risk their liquid assets for a collectible item with the belief that it too can be a store of value. Most collectors' wives do not share this belief.:)
 
I do get out, been to gun/knife shows from Reno, to AK to PA within the year. Maybe the gun, knife and arms collector shows I go to are the underbelly, but the behaviour I've discussed has all been witnessed within the last 6 years. If you have money to deal with the cream, maybe you don't see the whole picture either. I don't have money for the cream, I'm just lucky enough to travel. You'd be suprised at the variey of shows from big NV hotels to tents in Amish country.

If collectors are honorable, why do the top collectors want to assure that they get previews and early admission to big shows so they can cherry pick the work of the hottest? Is this not lust and greed at work?

If collectors are honorable, why is there a sub-hobby on these forums of identifying the most egregious e-bay fakes and holding them up for public ridicule? Those fakes are being sold by "honorable?" collectors. There's a lot of 'em to be a "minority."

Faking collectibles and other dishonorable things by collectors and dealers are time honored human occupations for many years. It's not just knives, but furniture, guns, paintings, jewelry, watches, etc.
 
Bastid said:
The short answer is yes. At least to the point that a collector need to do what he says to do. When you strike a deal on a knife or place an order with a maker you need to do what you say you are going to do. If your opinion is asked you should be honest no matter what the circumstances. If greed motivates you, it would be better for you to get out of knife collection.

(I am not sure who brownshoe hangs around, but in 20+ years of serious knife collecting it has been rare for me to meet the types he describes and it is the more the norm for me to meet people who I trust.) I expect the norm.

----------------
Edited to add.
I collect slipjoints and a lot of my friends also collect them and do not see any dishonor in buying a knife for them at a show they are unable to attend. I have a lot of wonderful and very desirable knives in my collection that I would not have if it were not for fellow friends in the knife world. Some of whom collect the same type of stuff that I do.

I do not see dishonor in adding to my collection if one of my friends wants the same thing I do at the same time, there have been occasions when I have let the friend (or in a couple of occasions some one I did not know) go first and there have been times when I went first since I was there to make the actual decision and purchase the knife.

If you do not see honor among makers and collectors as a norm, you need to get out more and meet some true participants in the realm rather than the ones on the fringes looking to make a buck before anything else.
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Well said, Gus!

Gus here, is one of the most honorable collectors I've ever dealt with.

I would also say that 98% of the folks I've dealt with are good honorable people.

brownshoe, there is a big difference between 'gun and knife shows' and 'custom knife shows'
 
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