Is it necessary for collectors to be honorable?

Brownshoe,

Deducting a property that applies to all members of a group by extrapolating a known property of a part of the said group is faulty logic. It leads to false conclusions more often than not.
 
Don Hanson III said:
I would also say that 98% of the folks I've dealt with are good honorable people.
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I would say the same - and that goes right across the custom knife community: dealers, makers and fellow collectors / enthusiasts.

I sure am glad I don't live on brownshoe's planet. Don't like the sound of that place much at all.

Roger
 
Hi Brownshoe,

Question for you.

I makers/collectors/dealers are such vermin. Why do you continue to post here?

You have over 1500 posts. Obviously you can't hate these people too much.

Remember just like Greed and Lust...Envy and Vengeance are also deadly sins.

Just tell the story of the collector/dealer that either beat you to the knife you wanted or offered more than you could pay. You will feel better.

WWG
 
Brownshoe , I have seen plenty of people buy knives for friends at a show , and not charge them a markup or handling fee , perhaps it is just your friends that do that ? birds of a feather...... ;)
 
I'll tell you this. I've met some sheisters and I've met some good people, at gun shows and knife shows. At the recent Timonium knife show, I met people who were artisans, while supporting themselves, weren't out to rape anyones pocket. I also found some collectors, making a living selling knives, but who weren't trying to rape anyone. It is a two way street, and I believe that the collector should be just as reputable as the maker.

Pay your bill promptly and on time. The makers rent, food and car payment is in that knife you are buying. Not only that, but his honor, love of the craft and sweat.

If you are at a show, or on the phone, or on the computer, I see nothing wrong with friendly negotiation. Most of the makers I have met have a good price on their work to begin with. Counting experience as a big factor is fine in my book, but they back up that experience with a great knife. Know what you can spend before you dive in.

I don't think that is just the collectors responsibility to pay promptly for the knife though. Like I said, it is a two way street. You expect the maker to be the perfect gentleman or woman for you, you need to exhibit the same manner with him/her.

Too many people deal with huge corporations these days. With custom knifemakers, there is now a face to who you're dealing with. I think that when collectors realize that the maker is only one person, often times only a one man operation, and that he might encounter problems along the road same as us, then we as collectors can improve.
 
All of the collectors I've dealt with on this thread are all good honorable business people. :)
 
Tossing out a lot of rhetoric there, brownshoe. Sorry but in your scenario no one is getting ripped off, no one's a thief, and no one's stealing.


brownshoe said:
What's a collector's best score? Taking for $20 in Grandma's pre-nursing home garage sale, that Scagel hunting knife she's had in the basement since her father died. That's a colector's dream, but still rips off Grandma who needs the money much more than the collector needs either their money or the knife. If you knowingly steal from a little old lady and justify your actions by "she should have known what it's worth" does that make you any less of a thief? Spread good karma, it might come back. :)
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brownshoe said:
I do get out, been to gun/knife shows from Reno, to AK to PA within the year. Maybe the gun, knife and arms collector shows I go to are the underbelly, but the behaviour I've discussed has all been witnessed within the last 6 years. If you have money to deal with the cream, maybe you don't see the whole picture either. I don't have money for the cream, I'm just lucky enough to travel. You'd be suprised at the variey of shows from big NV hotels to tents in Amish country.

If collectors are honorable, why do the top collectors want to assure that they get previews and early admission to big shows so they can cherry pick the work of the hottest? Is this not lust and greed at work?

If collectors are honorable, why is there a sub-hobby on these forums of identifying the most egregious e-bay fakes and holding them up for public ridicule? Those fakes are being sold by "honorable?" collectors. There's a lot of 'em to be a "minority."

Faking collectibles and other dishonorable things by collectors and dealers are time honored human occupations for many years. It's not just knives, but furniture, guns, paintings, jewelry, watches, etc.
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So do you actually have any examples where a custom knife collector has been working with fakes or is all this in your mind.

Again I have not seen it in my experience.


As far a collectors and factory fakes. I do not think it is collectors who take those multiblades apart and put together fakes. (maybe one or two might have the skill to to that, but again I think your imagination has run away a little on this topic.)

I would have a greater tendency to try to understand if you came up with a concrete example of what you are talking about and if it pertained to custom knife collectors. I have met about 2 or 3 in over 20 years that I do not trust with money or knives. So I still think you are hanging out on the fringes if at all of the hobby.
 
brownshoe said:
...If collectors are honorable, why do the top collectors want to assure that they get previews and early admission to big shows so they can cherry pick the work of the hottest? Is this not lust and greed at work?
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Dude - show organizers ENCOURAGE top collectors to attend early - WHY? they want to guarantee knifemakers that committed buyers will buy their knives - otherwise, how many knifemakers will buy tables? The top collectors also spread the word - encouraging others to attend, maybe become members of local knife clubs to get in early, etc. I am not a show organizer, but I sure would consider this an essential part of the organizing the show. I guess you could say that this is greed on the part of the show organizer. But then again, how do you differentiate between making a living, and "greed".

By strict biblical standards, all collectors are sinful because the collection of material wealth inherently stands in the way of timeless sacrifice and grace.


brownshoe said:
...If collectors are honorable, why is there a sub-hobby on these forums of identifying the most egregious e-bay fakes and holding them up for public ridicule? Those fakes are being sold by "honorable?" collectors. There's a lot of 'em to be a "minority."

Faking collectibles and other dishonorable things by collectors and dealers are time honored human occupations for many years. It's not just knives, but furniture, guns, paintings, jewelry, watches, etc.
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The desire to profit by faking has nothing to do with collectors - how about real estate agents, securities brokers, car dealers, insurance salesmen...the list goes on.

If you have something specific to say or specific dealers you want to call out - go ahead. Othewise, I think we can all consider you a faker, peddling your stories for effect.
 
Most, if not all the people selling fakes on ebay are not collectors. They are thieves and flimflam artists. They have never collected knives in their lives, but want to take advantage of those that do.
 
I guess I stand corrected, Custom Knife Collectors are honorable. It's all the other types of knife collectors that have dishonorable participants.

But then, what about the Lile with and w/o the dot scam? I've heard that one played by both a dealer and a collector. Isn't that a Custom Knife? When the money gets big and the lust gets powerful, even custom collectors and dealers get tempted and cross over the edge. They are just human too.


Mr. Wylie, per your remark:

"Brownshoe , I have seen plenty of people buy knives for friends at a show , and not charge them a markup or handling fee , perhaps it is just your friends that do that ? birds of a feather......"

That's not the scenario I was referring to. Someone has already posted in this thread indicating they would buy a knife at a show at a friend's request, but only if they didn't wanted the knife themselves. If you sent me to a show to buy you a Onion, I'd still buy and give it to you even if I "had lust in my heart" for it.
 
brownshoe said:
Someone has already posted in this thread indicating they would buy a knife at a show at a friend's request, but only if they didn't wanted the knife themselves.
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Did you happen to check with the poster to see if he may just have been joking around, or did you just assume that he was being serious?

As to the original question asked, It may not be necessary for a collector to be honorable, but I do require it of myself and the people that I deal with.
 
Brownshoe,

The "Lile without a dot" was not a scam. It was a way to signify the passing of Jimmy. Quite frankly most didn't even know about this until the Lile Knife Company went out of business.

The market educated buyers and adjustments are made.

While this may be throwing gas onto the fire. The reason Lile changed from "Handmade by James B Lile" (which was engraved on knives) to LILE. Was because there was someone counterfitting Jimmy's knives. I have seen Counterfit Morans as well. In either case that person was thief and not necessarily a collector/maker/dealer.

If people did their homework they would be less likely to fall prey to the scams.

Then again "you can't cheat and honest man".

WWG
 
By the way brownshoe, you did not originally post that custom knife collecting had dishonorable participants, you posted that collectors are not honorable. If you meant to post that some collectors are not honorable, that is one thing, but to post that collectors are not honorable is just plain rediculous, and insulting.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Did you happen to check with the poster to see if he may just have been joking around, or did you just assume that he was being serious?
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I was serious, but perhaps not clear...and it seems important to make a clarification.

If someone "sends" me to a show to pick them up a knife, and I agree to it, I do it, every time.

If someone asks me to swing by a makers' table, and see what they have of interest, and I was going to check out the makers' table anyway, and they have one knife on the table, and I want it......I am keeping it.... but would have clarified this with my friend first, and I don't think that is a black speck on my honor.

I'm "in" with many circles of collectors, many who are active here, and that is why I put the invitation forward for them to impugne my honor, should they choose to do so.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
brownshoe said:
Someone has already posted in this thread indicating they would buy a knife at a show at a friend's request, but only if they didn't wanted the knife themselves. If you sent me to a show to buy you a Onion, I'd still buy and give it to you even if I "had lust in my heart" for it.
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I dont see where someone saying that they would buy a knife for a friend IF they werent interested for themselves as being dishonorable. That would not be dishonorable , that is just looking out for your interests first.
 
my turn to chime in.

I have been collecting knives since I was five years old.

It started with small Pakistan and Chinese knives from the five and dime store and currently is with many fine custom knives.

Acting Honorably is a way of life...it cannot be defined by a persons collection or hobbies. Honor is to tell the truth, defend those who are defenseless, and help those who are poor and protect those who need protection.

Mr. Brownshoe the reason you are on the Pirates cove PT list is because of the exact spew that you state here in this thread my making callous generalizations about people and places that you have never met. Your ignorance is overwhelming and offensive to me.

If I knew a little old widow with a rare Randall that she was selling for $20 I do not care how badly I wanted the knife I would tell her the knife was by far more valuable than $20 and offer my services to have it appraised so that she could receive proper compensation for selling the knife. This is called protecting those that need protection.

Are there dishonorable knife collectors...well yes there are but that is not a exclusive characteristic of ALL KNIFE COLLECTORS ( :rolleyes:) it is a HUMAN CHARACTER TRAIT...of which you too posses..

your hypocrisy is astounding...
 
There are dishonorable people on these forums. Why there is even a guy who won't miss a chance to bad mouth a respected knife manufacturer and constantly attempts to extort a free knife from them. Some people have no sense of morality what-so-ever.
 
Most people are pretty decent and the vast majority of the folks here at BF come across as top notch in the honorable and decent category.

I try very hard to be pretty decent as well except I have this one flaw....you see, I have this burning desire to head to West Africa and get me a voodoo doll of brownshoe so I can stick a buncha pins and needles in it. :thumbup: :D
 
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