is it "Wire Fraud" ???

W

Woods Creeper

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Hello Knife People ,
Wondering ... if I could get some input here.
I am pretty sure I am dealing with a case of WIRE FRAUD ...
Months back (5) sent payment across state lines to a well known knife maker for a custom knife.
Full payment for the knife.
A build time of 12 weeks on the outside given prior to getting any payment...
When it went past time to see the knife ...tried/tried to contact the maker.
About a week or more later he responded with NO EXCUSE for the delay and if anything
was rather curt in his manner and response.
I asked for a refund.
He said he would refund my money but it would take a "couple weeks for him to get it together"
a $210.00 refund.
(good indicator he is broke AND has 100's orders on his books)
Now been over 5 weeks waiting for my refund ... and heard some excuses/lies as well.
was told it was in the mail 8 days ago and now told it went in the mail yesterday.
Plan on going to the FBI field office next Weds. if I do not see the refund and see about having charges made...
seems to me this would be WIRE FRAUD since the post office / internet was involved.
I am not new to ordering and buying custom products , this was like the 4th or 5th knife I ordered this year alone.
not counting other stuff too. Realy IRKED ME when he tried to say "I HAD THE PROBLEM" ... like I am supposed to accept his shortcomings.:jerk it:
any INPUT from other forum members would be appreciated a lot.
Thanks knife people
W/C
 
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This belongs in this forum. It would also be good to know the name of the maker, so nobody else gives him any money.

You shouldn't pay for a custom knife in advance unless it's already made.
 
Your laws may be different, but where I live, your issue would be considered a 'civil' matter--certainly nothing criminal. Your best course is small claims court.

Hope it all works out for you...
 
Well, I would love to know who it is. OP, can you PM me? I would like to know if its someone who has my money.
 
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We can't help much without knowing who the maker is, and that includes letting him know about this thread so he can respond.
 
timberweasel said:
Your laws may be different, but where I live, your issue would be considered a 'civil' matter--certainly nothing criminal. Your best course is small claims court.QUOTE]

I agree with with Timberweasel, it is a civil matter, since you willingly sent the money. If it was fraud the FBI would not assist you unless the loss was in excess of $50,000.00 or higher, they would refer you to the local authorities. The US Postal Police may help if you used the USPS, or if the maker alleges the money or knife was stolen in transit. I have worked several cases with the Postal Police over the years and they are very helpful. Now by "wire" you mean PayPal, you can start a case with them and they will freeze the money while they do an investigation. If you paid by credit card, check and see what protections they give you.

wire fraud definition:
Title 18 united states code section #1343

Fraud by wire, radio, or television

Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation occurs in relation to, or involving any benefit authorized, transported, transmitted, transferred, disbursed, or paid in connection with, a presidentially declared major disaster or emergency (as those terms are defined in section 102 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5122)), or affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.

For title 18 apply you would have to prove he never intended to make the knife, and that he has done this to other people, and even then due to the loss being low, most likeley you would be refered to the local jurisdictions for state statutes.

My only advise as a LEO is never wire (use Western Union type business), a stranger money, always use Paypal, money orders, cahsiers checks or credit cards. I would only "wire" money to a friend or relative.

Sorry things worked out like they did, hopefully if word gets out on BF maybe he will see the light and refund your money.
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I wouldn't be too sure about the fraud claim. Having spoken to a few lawyers in the past you need to prove fraudulent intent in order to prove fraud. That's actually a very difficult standard to prove especially in cases like this.
 
Planterz said:
This belongs in this forum. It would also be good to know the name of the maker, so nobody else gives him any money.

You shouldn't pay for a custom knife in advance unless it's already made.
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Yeah, that is good advice for sure. Can't say how many times I have seen threads about this exact problem. Most reputable makers won't take payment up front for an unfinished knife.
 
Who is the maker!!?? I have been waiting on a knife now for quite awhile!? Please share! You will only be potentially helping others by doing so! At this point do u really care about his reputation being tarnished? And lastly, never ever give a maker money upfront! Most common mistake I see on here!!
 
Woods Creeper, I can understand some hesitation in naming the maker, since it seems to cut off any chance of a happy outcome.

How about giving him a link to this thread now and asking him to help you end the agony now? If he can become a bit more communicative, give you a better feel for when you would get the knife, sound like he does care, we all come out ahead.
 
like longtrang said, i never take money for a knife in advance and if someone offers i refuse (unless they are face to face with me and a lot bigger than i am and strongly insist :D)
 
Pretty easy to figure out if you go to the OP's posts and go back 5 months. Deposit required but not full payment. Good maker but a lot of irons in the fire and worth the wait. Maybe this is why he no longer requires monies up front and is now using a lot of dealers to sell for him.
 
Kinda like too SEE my refund ... this week.
all a BIG SHAME ... think fraud be easy enough too prove , given the NUMBER of people
actually involved. Makes me sick to my stomach dealing with it...
soon enough folks ...
found out the hard way ... reputable dealers require money when done...
I always try to pay a deposit.
My whole family are LEO's or retired from the Job.
 
and ... NO HE DOES NOT CARE ... told me again last week about it "being in the mail" and then said
yesterday it went in the mail yesterday... forgot about it all week , he said. (lies ?)
His name will come out soon enough , like to see the 210 dollars I sent him in good faith.
Mistake I made was thinking a well known maker would have a better outcome overall...
I guessed wrong.
 
As to Mail Fraud, the criminal law is not identical with civil law as regards "fraud." The following is from the U.S. Justice Department Prosecution Manual.

940
18 U.S.C. Section 1341—Elements of Mail Fraud

"There are two elements in mail fraud:

(1) having devised or intending to devise a scheme to defraud (or to perform specified fraudulent acts), and (2) use of the mail for the purpose of executing, or attempting to execute, the scheme (or specified fraudulent acts)." Schmuck v. United States, 489 U.S. 705, 721 n. 10 (1989); see also Pereira v. United States, 347 U.S. 1, 8 (1954) ("The elements of the offense of mail fraud under . . . § 1341 are (1) a scheme to defraud, and

(2) the mailing of a letter, etc., for the purpose of executing the scheme."); Laura A. Eilers & Harvey B. Silikovitz, Mail and Wire Fraud, 31 Am. Crim. L. Rev. 703, 704 (1994) (cases cited).

The fraudulent aspect of the scheme to defraud is to be measured by nontechnical standards and is not restricted by any common-law definition of false pretenses. "[T]he words 'to defraud' in the mail fraud statute have the 'common understanding' of '"wrongdoing one in his property rights by dishonest methods or schemes," and "usually signify the deprivation of something of value by trick, chicane, or overreaching."'" Carpenter, 484 U.S. at 27 (quoting McNally v. United States, 483 U.S. 350, 358 (1987) (quoting Hammerschmidt v. United States, 265 U.S. 182, 188 (1924))). "The concept of 'fraud' includes the act of embezzlement, which is '"the fraudulent appropriation to one's own use of the money or goods entrusted to one's own care by another."'" Id. (quoting Grin v. Shine, 187 U.S. 181, 189 (1902)).
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Note:

9-43.100

Prosecution Policy Relating to Mail Fraud and Wire Fraud

Prosecutions of fraud ordinarily should not be undertaken if the scheme employed consists of some isolated transactions between individuals, involving minor loss to the victims, in which case the parties should be left to settle their differences by civil or criminal litigation in the state courts. Serious consideration, however, should be given to the prosecution of any scheme which in its nature is directed to defrauding a class of persons, or the general public, with a substantial pattern of conduct.
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The penalty for Mail Fraud is a fine and not more than 20 years imprisonment.
 
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