Is making your own Damascus financially viable?

I have been itching to try my hand at making Damascus, but people keep telling me it will pretty much eat up my forge. Being that I only have the one forge and it is brand new I don't feel like eating it up with borax at this point. How hard is that stuff on your forge really? And would. Small tray in the bottom help save it? Sorry to hijack Patrice I just wanted to ask while everyone was on this topic. Thanks guys
 
Depends on the forge lining. If it's just raw ceramic fiber, then yes, it'll eat right through it. It'll also destroy soft fire bricks. Hard fire bricks, kast-o-lite, mizzuo, and bubble alumina, are all very resistant.

The bottom of my vertical blown forge is lined with bubble alumina, and honestly, I figure there is about a 2" pond of borax on top, it's still fine, but the sides have just been relined, because they were covered with kast-o-lite 30. I'm happy with Kast-o-lite 30, and it's very insulative, but honestly think Mizzuo is more flux resistant.

That beings said, with a 112 CFM Kayne & Son blower (OMFG, I upgraded from a surplus center 75 cfm blower, and this thing is about 1000x more powerful), I'm running 1-2 psi on my regulator, and have the blower fully dampered. I can't keep my forge much below welding heats.


Sorry, rambled... ;D
 
Thanks for the additional input guys.

Looks like I had over estimated my needs by a large margin. Like I said, the surface grinder I will get anyway and even if I like my portaband, a full size bandsaw is also something I will end up buying no matter what.
Since I will most likely always be relatively close to the neighbors I am thinking a press is what I want versus a power hammer. For the forge, I do need a separate building though. Don't think “The One Who Must Be Obeyed” would like me running that large of a forge in the house. ;)

Teddy, I understand what you are saying about cash flow but I am planning to be a “Gentleman Knifemaker” meaning that I will retire from my mundane job and my retirement will take care of living expenses. Since I will most likely make more elaborate knives and probably not more than a dozen a year, if even that, I am not looking to make lots of money from this, covering costs and maybe making a little extra is a more realistic goal I think.

So with your input about a more realistic estimate of the cost and the enjoyment that it brings, I am now sure I want to the try it and even if the forge is a long way off I can start with the press.
As you suggested Chuck I'll still try and see who is the closest person I could go try it with.

But even then I think Cody sealed the deal. That is gorgeous and my favorite Damascus pattern. :thumbup: How can I not try it now. :o ;)

Grayzer, you are not hijacking, that is stuff I need to learn about too.

Javand, rambling is accepted, even encouraged. ;)
 
I can't run numbers for you, since I've never made or even used damascus.

But I can say this much: your question is not really that different from the new guy who wants to make a few "regular" knives, or from the guy who wants to crank out any other sort of handmade/custom knife for a living. Can it be done? Of course! But it's a long way to the top if you wanna rock'n'roll.

You'll notice that most guys who make really good damascus (or any other sort of handmade knife) are:
A) Completely dedicated to it, and have taken years to build up their tools, skills and business, or...
B) Retired and/or have a life-style-supporting income that does not depend entirely on knife sales to put food on the table.

Mostly B).

Is making your own damascus worthwhile if you're just trying to sustain your hobby/passion without pouring a heckuva lot of time and money into it? I can't see it.

Can you run a business and feed your family with it? Maybe... in all honesty, for most people, probably not. It really depends on the resources you have to start with, and whether or not success in that matter seriously impacts your mortgage/grocery cupboard. Can you afford to fail?

I always shake my head when someone says "well, a thousand bucks here or there isn't that much". Yeah, right. Small shops like mine operate on a shoestring.

Ask your local banker or small-business administrator for a loan to do it. Their response will give you a pretty good idea of whether or not it's viable.
 
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i keep kickig this areound and since i life semi close to people (shop is on jsut one acre) i would do a press and not a hammer (tho i woudl love to have a john larson 50lb )
surface grinder woudl be nice but less i get into folders more i dont really have a need (milling flat works jsut fine for most knife parts)
i will tell you the best $$ spent one a bansaw is a roll in saw. its great and i got mine used for 2k$
 
I think some of us looked at Patrice's post much differently...

At least I think I took Patrice's post differently than some of you fellas. I took it as, "Considering my position in the knife world, life, etc. can I justify going down this road toward making my own steel?" Not, "Can I make money making damascus?"

There's definitely a big difference. I think anyone with a desire to learn an aspect of this craft (so long as it doesn't hurt their family!) can justify at least trying whatever that new skill might be.


Patrice--- I remember when I got my first freon tank forge going with a LOT of help from a couple good friends. At that time I had zero interest in forging carbon steel blades, and wasn't really into damascus either. I just wanted to understand forging better, so that it wasn't just some crazy black magic process that I knew nothing about (fear of the unknown? :confused: LOL).

But once I started moving hot steel, I fell in love with the process. That's why I think most guys would if they just got the chance to try it.

So anyway, fast forward a couple years, and I was getting a Carlisle hydraulic press. Add in some serious help from Bill Cottrell and Tom Ferry, and I had a vertical welding forge. Between a lot of research, and help from those two, I was making CLEAN, USEABLE billets right off the git-go. I didn't mess up much steel until a little later down the road, trying "fancy" patterns.

When you take a billet you've been toiling over in front of the fire and anvil, grind the forge scale off and dip the billet into ferric to see the pattern.... It's an amazing feeling.

Once you experience that, I'm confident you will realize it is worth the planning/efforts/saving to make it happen.
 
NickWheeler said:
At least I think I took Patrice's post differently than some of you fellas. I took it as, "Considering my position in the knife world, life, etc. can I justify going down this road toward making my own steel?"
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Bingo! That is exactly what I meant Nick. :thumbup: (You actually said it even better than I could have. :o)
I talked about the financial aspect of it as one of the things factoring in the decision and the one thing I thought I needed input from you guys on. Turns out that you gave me that but also some advices one the "intangible" part of it which in my case might actually be more important in deciding to do it or not.

And now it is definite, I am doing it. Not right away of course but I will slowly start the planning/saving process.

Thanks again. What would I do without you guys?

PS: I will look into roll saws Butch, thanks.
 
Salem Straub said:
Cody, you didn't use a press to smear cut that feather? Great blade, by the way!
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Nope!! Good old fashioned hammer and hot cut! Didn't even have a striker! I was scared it wouldn't look right, because I had never seen anyone do it with a hammer, but it worked. I think it took me 3 or 4 heats to do it, and used a foot chain to hold it still.
 
NickWheeler said:
... Not, "Can I make money making damascus?"
Click to expand...

Well, the title of the thread is "Is making Damascus financially viable?" and he did mention going full-time, so yeah... that means making a profit. The grocery man and utility company and so forth don't give a hoot if we're artists, or if we're having fun :)

I didn't mean to be discouraging, and I'm the last guy that would tell someone not to follow their dream. If I was only in it for the money, I'd be managing someone else's factory, not grinding steel in a one-man shop :p

This conversation does raise a much deeper question, and by coincidence a fellow named Larry Langdon posted a big write-up on it earlier today on FB. Basically he was talking about the fact that he's made lots more $$$ doing other things like selling parts and pushing paper around, but he's just plain happier actually making things. And that's important, too :thumbup:
 
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Yes James but I am you must have missed that I also said going full time after I retire and that the grocery and stuff would be taken care of. So it was not about making a profit/living but knowing more about the financial aspect of it to help in making a decision.

Nick just understood that and pointed it out. We seem to think alike, well more than you and me do anyway. But we already knew that. ;)
 
Guess I'm the only one who thinks that "financially viable" means getting back more than you put into it, retired or not. *shrug*
 
i do hope rot have a hot shop later but for now its grinder monky for me and order damascus steel from the pros
 
Patrice, you have a similar outlook to me as well. I have a great job, and great pension. I do not need to make money, but I don't want to burn up money either. I have to be responsible to my family, and not drop several grand into this right off of the bat. I have spent all of my adult life meeting expectations, and think I have earned the privilege of doing something I enjoy in my spare time, and spending a bit of money to make it happen. With Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, I have to make a proper grinder financially feasible, but I cannot drop $2500+ on a ready to run variable speed now. I have most of the raw materials, but not enough time. I will weld up my own press time permitting too. I have a time and money plan this year, and have discussed it with my wife.
 
Yeah you could easily get by with a forging press *OR* a power hammer (which are both hella useful for many things), and blown vertical forge (can build one for a couple hundred), a band saw (not even mandatory, but nice), and a good angle grinder.


I never surface grind my billets unless I"m selling them to a stock removal guy, or to show the pattern for sales. Now I do recommend any serious maker get a small surface grinder, for knife building, but it's not remotely necessary for making damascus for your own use.

Many ABS guys and others out there are making their own damascus with the above mentioned.


Another thing I'd highly recommend is a decent mig welder, but once again not mandatory.

You can build a press for anywhere from $1000 (maybe less), to $2000, or buy one in the same realm used. If you're frugal, you could be making damascus for less than $2k total. That's a pretty low barrier to entry.

That being said, it is a slippery slope. I've got 2 hammers now, a large hydro feed surface grinder, 2 large knee mills, 2 mig welders, 1 tig welder, a rolling mill, 3 band saws, and I'm building a 50 ton press, and will probably end up with a blanchard grinder whenever I can find room.

I use all of those tools on the daily making various patterns, and I'd hate not to have them, but I could live without most. That being said, I'm focused more on making money off damascus and tools, than I am off knives.. (Want to keep the knives fun.)
 
I make Damascus with a blown propane forge that cost me less than $100 to build, a crappy belt grinder, a 4 1/2 pound hand hammer, and a 125 pound Peter Wright anvil (and a MIG welder for tacking handles on) I am slowly building a 30 ton forging press so I can drop my time per billet from 20-50 hours down to 1-2 and make larger billets (and fancier patterns like flame and feather)

-Page
 
Grayzer86 said:
I have been itching to try my hand at making Damascus, but people keep telling me it will pretty much eat up my forge. Being that I only have the one forge and it is brand new I don't feel like eating it up with borax at this point. How hard is that stuff on your forge really? And would. Small tray in the bottom help save it? Sorry to hijack Patrice I just wanted to ask while everyone was on this topic. Thanks guys
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Use hydrocarbon solvent instead of borax; it doesn't eat anything. I've used this over the last year and a half and find it far superior to borax. My welds a better with no inclusions as is sometimes the case with borax.
Shoot me a PM if you wish more information on using hydrocarbon solvent.

Fred
 
Willie, I wish you the best with your retirement/hobby. We sometimes makes sacrifices as far as doing something we might not like that much because of a good pension plan so like you said, I think we deserve a hobby that makes us happy.

I appreciate the additional input. I would probably not do things bare bones though. For one, it would end up costing me much more, time wise, and my fab skills are not that great.

1) I have a small MIG welder (120V) I hope that it is large enough.
2) I would buy a press, not make one. Nick suggested Al's at Riverside Machinery. Just have to figure out the shipping to Canada (or go get it myself, although I doubt it will fit in my Mazda Protege. ;)).
3) The forge I might make but then again it depends on how much it is new and how hard to get it here. I don't even know what is a vertical forge or why it is best for Damascus. I did not even notice that it was not a regular forge in the few Damascus threads I read. :o
4) Surface grinder I will buy but mostly for other knifemaking tasks like javand said and use a grinder mostly.
5) Bandsaw I will also buy but use a chop-saw for cutting billets.
6) Last big expense will be a hot room in the new shop.

Thanks to you guys I am definitely getting a better idea of what I need and now that I have made the decision in my mind to do it, my too small brain is reeling with ideas of how to venture outside the box. Gotta slow down and learn the basics first though. :o
 
Patrice, just a thought. When I first started making knives, 1994 or so, I rented a 20x20 foot space from a friend who had a large barn-like shop. Since he was a friend, I got it for around forty bucks a month. There were a lot of people coming in and out, and I enjoyed the company. I'm not there anymore, since I now have a double size garage to put my shop in.

If you could find something like that when your'e ready, it might be a good, cheap alternative to working in your home with close neighbors.
 
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