Is peening the handle pins necessary?

NickWheeler said:
I like to do domed pins on a lot of my knives... so the pins end up a lot like a miniature version of the rivets you see in old iron bridges. It's a strong mechanical fastener, but also a decorative touch.
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Yours are some of my favorite style and usage, Nick, and you do them well. A beautiful touch.
 
Karl those knives are incredible. I love the dark handle/damascus.

So, does this technique eliminate the threat of splitting, if done correctly?

Thanks everyone. There is great information in every reply here...



Karl B. Andersen said:
Often, when I pin mortised handles on, I make a pin "socket" to hold the handle and to eliminate all the lateral stress on the handle material.
Drill pin holes:


Counter sink holes for sockets made by drilling 1/8" hole in 1/4" stock:



Epoxy in place:



When you peen the pin, it smooshes laterally into the socket, holding it very tight.

This is how one looks when sanded smooth.


This is how they look when left in the peened condition:




Click to expand...
 
This first knife I'm making will be a 4" handle, 2 1/2" blade (or so.)

I'd like the handle to be on the thin side. The steel I plan to use is 3/16, so I'm thinking of getting some 1/4" wood for each side of the handle, sanded to 3/16, for a total thickeness of 9/16.

It won't be a hard-use knife, but I'd like to make the handle as strong as possible. I'm inclined to peen, even if it's not strictly necessary.

I'm also interested in not having the handle crack at any time during the life of the knife, at least not due to the peening...



aarongough said:
I think it depends on what kind of knife you're making... If you're making knives that will never be treated roughly (light prying, twisting, chopping) then I don't think it is necessary.

However if you're making a knife that will see rough use then epoxy is not enough. Especially if you're only preparing your glue surfaces by sanding.

In my testing sanding steel and micarta and gluing them together with nice epoxy (West Systems) created a joint that could be pulled apart by hand (the micarta was overhanging the steel so you could get a grip). Changing to sandblasting for prepping the glue surfaces hugely increases the surface area (and strength) and made it so that vice grips were needed to get the pieces apart.

Even with that I still recommend peened pins. I counter-bore my pin holes and then peen into the counter-bores as opposed to counter-sinking. This allows me to sand/grind the end of the pin without running the risk of grinding off the expanded part.

With those two things together I can abuse my knives without fear of the handles delaminating. I mainly treat the epoxy as a way of sealing the underneath of the handle and keeping moisture away from the tang...

I understand that dealing with abuse is not necessarily the right goal, but I like to make sure that I'm meaner to my knives than my customers will be so that I won't see any failures in the field!
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aarongough said:
I counter-bore my pin holes and then peen into the counter-bores as opposed to counter-sinking. This allows me to sand/grind the end of the pin without running the risk of grinding off the expanded part.

With those two things together I can abuse my knives without fear of the handles delaminating. I mainly treat the epoxy as a way of sealing the underneath of the handle and keeping moisture away from the tang...

I understand that dealing with abuse is not necessarily the right goal, but I like to make sure that I'm meaner to my knives than my customers will be so that I won't see any failures in the field!
Click to expand...

Would you mind describing the difference between counter-sinking and counter boring?
 
A counter bore would look like the hole I put my pin collars into. A distinct separate diameter hole.
A counter sink would be a gradual tapering of a larger hole DOWN to the diameter of the smaller hole.

petercrowell said:
Would you mind describing the difference between counter-sinking and counter boring?
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With respect to wood and metal expanding at different rates due to temp. changes and breaking the epoxy bond - that is why West System G-Flex is so good. It has been formulated to cure with a slight flexibility so the bond won't break.
Tim
 
I've heard that G-2 epoxy (West Systems, sounds similar to the stuff mentioned above) is good enough to create a bond between the handle and tang that is stronger than the handle material itself (handle must be ground off). A little Googling shows Accra-Glass comes highly recommended as well, with similar stories.
I've still never seen a pin-less handle though.
 
I looked up the G-Flex and it sounds interesting. I'll study up on it some more and may try it out. I'll still peen though as it's just added insurance.

I do use Accra Glass as my epoxy of choice. The thing is when I first started making knife shaped objects I had several full tang failures and want to make sure they won't come off no matter what. Perhaps over engineered, but then I'd rather make something stronger than needed.
 
Will52100 said:
I looked up the G-Flex and it sounds interesting. I'll study up on it some more and may try it out. I'll still peen though as it's just added insurance.

I do use Accra Glass as my epoxy of choice. The thing is when I first started making knife shaped objects I had several full tang failures and want to make sure they won't come off no matter what. Perhaps over engineered, but then I'd rather make something stronger than needed.
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I had not got so far as to consider the epoxy. More useful info. Thanks!
 
Would you say there is a minimum thickness for the wood on each side of the handle, when doing a cutler's rivet?

I'd like a slender handle for this first knife (2 1/2" blade, 4 1/4" handle, handle thickness total 9/16"). I'm hoping for a final thickness of 3/16" per scale, how deep should the sleeve part of the rivet go?

I assume a 1/4" sleeve with a 1/8" interior diameter, and a 1/8" interior pin would work.

Is that about right?

Sorry to pepper you, but I think I almost have my head around this...

Thanks for all your answers!



Karl B. Andersen said:
No, I used a counter bore.
Something like this:

http://usaknifemaker.com/counterbore-1-4-with-3-32-pilot-hole.html
Click to expand...
 
I've done it on one knife and it just looks very good.
It takes patience but imho is very rewarding when finished
 
NickWheeler said:
I have a few old knives from my Great Grandfather's saw mill that have the old style cutler rivets. They are very strong, but I think Karl has improved on the idea. The ones I have, are a relatively thin copper washer with a mild steel pin passed through and peened.

Karl's method has what I would call a sleeve or collar... that's a lot beefier. :thumbup: :)


.
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The thinness in the washer often came from the assembly technique and the finishing. In many cases there was no counterbored seat. The washer was placed on the pin, and the pin was peened hard on the roughly pre-shaped wooden handle. This drove the washer down into the wood a bit, making its own seat. In finishing, the washer was sanded to the curvature of the wood, making it flush and smooth. This left a pretty thin washer at the edge, but the rivet was still strong.
 
"Use the Force, Luke."

[video=youtube;o2we_B6hDrY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2we_B6hDrY[/video]


Just let your materials dictate what they need. I don't know the answer since I won't be in the shop there with you.
Try something, and if it doesn't work - try something else!
Just get a piece of any ol' material and see what works.
Don't "practice on your knife.


petercrowell said:
Would you say there is a minimum thickness for the wood on each side of the handle, when doing a cutler's rivet?

I'd like a slender handle for this first knife (2 1/2" blade, 4 1/4" handle, handle thickness total 9/16"). I'm hoping for a final thickness of 3/16" per scale, how deep should the sleeve part of the rivet go?

I assume a 1/4" sleeve with a 1/8" interior diameter, and a 1/8" interior pin would work.

Is that about right?

Sorry to pepper you, but I think I almost have my head around this...

Thanks for all your answers!
Click to expand...
 
Those were the droids I was looking for.

Point taken. Thanks Karl!

Karl B. Andersen said:
"Use the Force, Luke."

[video=youtube;o2we_B6hDrY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2we_B6hDrY[/video]


Just let your materials dictate what they need. I don't know the answer since I won't be in the shop there with you.
Try something, and if it doesn't work - try something else!
Just get a piece of any ol' material and see what works.
Don't "practice on your knife.
Click to expand...
 
LOL!
Reminds me of blacksmithing lessons with Peter Ross: "How much material do we use for that, Mr. Ross?" we'd all ask. He'd look at us and say with that sardonic Boston accent, "Enough."
 
Karl, I'm confused by the second picture in your lineup here.

It looks like the hole that goes through the handle wood is bigger than the hole drilled through the 1/4" socket.

Am I seeing things?



Karl B. Andersen said:
Often, when I pin mortised handles on, I make a pin "socket" to hold the handle and to eliminate all the lateral stress on the handle material.
Drill pin holes:


Counter sink holes for sockets made by drilling 1/8" hole in 1/4" stock:



Epoxy in place:



When you peen the pin, it smooshes laterally into the socket, holding it very tight.

This is how one looks when sanded smooth.


This is how they look when left in the peened condition:




Click to expand...
 
Is peening pins necessary? No. Flatly, IMO, not at all. I've done over 4000 knives without ever peening a pin. How about on a hard use knife? No. Never peened one. Peening and corby's are overkill and simply makers preference. There is no functional improvement from them IMO. I'm not saying its wrong, or bad. But it is certainly not necessary. Hell, I put 1/8" thick canvas micarta pins on hard use knives. I warranty a lot of these knives and I've never had a handle pop off. The machete blades flex so much that the glue joint between micarta and steel sometimes pops. Still never had a scale pop off. I flex the blade to the side and weep in superglue to fix.
 
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