Is sharpening overrated?

[Steel_Drake]

From my POV once the amount of deflection drops below a given threshold it ceases to be an issue worth debating compared to other factors. Just go back and forth between a fine diamond plate and any other surface of choice - relative deviation is easy to see.

I don't disagree with this, I would just suspect that most strop users are not staying below that point and would likely be better off avoiding using leather or balsa as a substrate.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Nowadays I don't strop, or if I do, it's on washboard. Mostly edge leading with Spyderco UF only.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

Its very easy to over do stropping, especially if your not experienced at stropping.

 

[mycough]

Its very easy to over do stropping, especially if your not experienced at stropping.

Agreed, Luong taught me that with quality compounds and proper substrate that less is more. Unless you delve into the balanced strop which is a whole other can of worms.
Russ

 

[HeavyHanded]

I would agree that it is abused, and often. People see the finish and believe it translates to edge quality, soon to learn there's more to it than that. Generally I recommend beginners stick to using compound on a sheet of paper wrapped around a stone (or better yet a Washboard!). The harder the backing the greater the margin of error for pressure, right up until the surface is so hard/abrasive is so fixed its liable to create a burr.

All said and done, there's probably as much potential for mischief microbeveling a burr or wire edge as there is rounding over an edge on a soft strop. It takes a bit of experimenting to see what the relative differences are from one strategy to another, but a lot of it common sense if done with a bit of pondering beforehand.

 

[Steel_Drake]

I would agree that it is abused, and often. People see the finish and believe it translates to edge quality, soon to learn there's more to it than that. Generally I recommend beginners stick to using compound on a sheet of paper wrapped around a stone (or better yet a Washboard!). The harder the backing the greater the margin of error for pressure, right up until the surface is so hard/abrasive is so fixed its liable to create a burr.

That sounds sensible, though once you are using paper wrapped around a stone or a washboard I would think of it as sharpening with edge-trailing strokes rather than stropping. so perhaps I just understand the term differently.

All said and done, there's probably as much potential for mischief microbeveling a burr or wire edge as there is rounding over an edge on a soft strop. It takes a bit of experimenting to see what the relative differences are from one strategy to another, but a lot of it common sense if done with a bit of pondering beforehand.

When using a solid sintered abrasive to apply a micro-bevel it is quite important to use very little force and to be familiar with burr minimization and removal techniques. I cross the scratch patterns and use very light (literally a few grams) of force to minimize burr formation and use a deburring pass at double the micro-bevel angle before the last few passes to ensure a clean, burr-free apex. There is certainly still room for error, but I've found this process much less likely to produce malformed apexes for me than any variant of stropping I've tried.

 

[Lee48]

I'm about knives like I am about guns: you clean them after shooting them, you sharpen them after you cut with them. The "how" is less important than the fact that you "do". Guns are more reliable when clean, knives cut better when sharp.

 

[ToddS]

That sounds sensible, though once you are using paper wrapped around a stone or a washboard I would think of it as sharpening with edge-trailing strokes rather than stropping. so perhaps I just understand the term differently.

Even a single sheet of newspaper over a stone is sufficiently compressible to "wrap-around" the apex.

When using a solid sintered abrasive to apply a micro-bevel it is quite important to use very little force and to be familiar with burr minimization and removal techniques. I cross the scratch patterns and use very light (literally a few grams) of force to minimize burr formation and use a deburring pass at double the micro-bevel angle before the last few passes to ensure a clean, burr-free apex. There is certainly still room for error, but I've found this process much less likely to produce malformed apexes for me than any variant of stropping I've tried.

When applying a micro-bevel, the contact area is very small - therefore pressure (force/area) is very large. No matter how little force you use, the tiny contact area results in very high pressure at the apex until the microbevel face is many microns wide.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Even lapping films are compressible, but on a hard enough backing the paper is about as hard as a piece of wood or harder (a piece of loose grit between the stone and paper can actually blow the edge out with surprising light pressure and without punching through the paper) - reasonable amounts of pressure won't round it though a stray pass or two certainly will. Newspaper is more compressible than writing paper as well, choose carefully or pre-compress the paper prior to use.

But realistically one has to figure out the margins of error and balance it against any means involved. Both of these methods and many more are used successfully everyday, and it would be difficult or impossible for a blind cut test to reveal how an edge was finished if it was done with a care to the limiting factors. Most of it comes down to personal preference and what methods we learn to reliably use with the least number of failures. Is only natural at that point to view other strategies with either a suspicion of inferiority, or at best a shrug, no matter what other folks think...

There's no free lunch when it comes to finishing off an edge, but as long as the underlying geometry and stone work up to that point are solid, the edge will perform well anyway for most chores.

I prefer the hard strop as I find I can customize my edge finish with the most ease. I also find that if I should need to reset the bevel (which might never be a concern after the initial setting), my deviation from "flat" is not much and I can achieve the reset with a minimum of steel loss. Is really the same when I am resetting the secondary on a microbevel, but my observation is that I often have to remove a little more steel to make a new apex, and with a microbevel I am guaranteed to need a reset at some point. Again, it makes a great edge and I do use it often enough. Try it all, the most challenging part of using edged tools is keeping them maintained to our satisfaction where they are being used - getting them sharp under somewhat controlled conditions is not all that difficult.

 

[Steel_Drake]

When applying a micro-bevel, the contact area is very small - therefore pressure (force/area) is very large. No matter how little force you use, the tiny contact area results in very high pressure at the apex until the microbevel face is many microns wide.

I am aware of that, however, I don't see how it is an argument against minimizing the force used to apply the micro-bevel (ideally a few grams), nor how it is an argument against the effectiveness of the technique for quickly generating a clean, burr-free apex.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

Even a single sheet of newspaper over a stone is sufficiently compressible to "wrap-around" the apex.




When applying a micro-bevel, the contact area is very small - therefore pressure (force/area) is very large. No matter how little force you use, the tiny contact area results in very high pressure at the apex until the microbevel face is many microns wide.

I am aware of that, however, I don't see how it is an argument against minimizing the force used to apply the micro-bevel (ideally a few grams), nor how it is an argument against the effectiveness of the technique for quickly generating a clean, burr-free apex.

I read it to mean, little force is required because the contact area along the apex is so small. Pounds per square inch increases as total contact area decreases, with identical pressure applied.

I know when using an ERU to strop/microbevel the weight of the blade is sufficient. The apex is making contact with 0.25 inches of perfectly aligned "V" thats at 9 on the Mohs scale. The more refined the apex at this stage the lighter the contact needed. Its very easy to over strop in this situation. I know, I've done it myself. This is even more critical when the apex is passing over softer abrasive or softer substrate.

Fred

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

... I also find that if I should need to reset the bevel (which might never be a concern after the initial setting), my deviation from "flat" is not much and I can achieve the reset with a minimum of steel loss. Is really the same when I am resetting the secondary on a microbevel, but my observation is that I often have to remove a little more steel to make a new apex, and with a microbevel I am guaranteed to need a reset at some point. Again, it makes a great edge and I do use it often enough. Try it all, the most challenging part of using edged tools is keeping them maintained to our satisfaction where they are being used - getting them sharp under somewhat controlled conditions is not all that difficult.

Martin,

Doing microbevel the Spyderco way every time definitely will remove steel more than necessary. Let's use an example if one always full apex at 30° and micro at 40°, every time touching up, it will reduce the 'height' of the blade (micro or nano it is). I think the best is keeping the micro when touching up and when it's time to thin down, not fully apex it at lower angle, but leave the final apex @ 40° a little bit, and continue maintain micro for usage.

It takes practice though, knowing the steel, and abrasive interaction to be able to do that. I haven't been able to do that consistently yet, so I just raise burr & clean it up .

What do you think (or anyone's)?

 

[HeavyHanded]

Martin,

Doing microbevel the Spyderco way every time definitely will remove steel more than necessary. Let's use an example if one always full apex at 30° and micro at 40°, every time touching up, it will reduce the 'height' of the blade (micro or nano it is). I think the best is keeping the micro when touching up and when it's time to thin down, not fully apex it at lower angle, but leave the final apex @ 40° a little bit, and continue maintain micro for usage.

It takes practice though, knowing the steel, and abrasive interaction to be able to do that. I haven't been able to do that consistently yet, so I just raise burr & clean it up .

What do you think (or anyone's)?

Chris, I think I understand the holding back on fully apexing the edge at the lower angle before microbeveling. I have several strategies for doing this, the first is to leave the edge somewhat rough and finish it with a smooth steel. It can take a number of touchups with the same steel before the apex has been burnished smooth and at that point the edge will begin to be drawn out and either not get sharp or fail very quickly. This method also limits the type of edge - works great for kitchen knives but I wouldn't try it with a camping knife.

The other is to leave the edge at a medium finish and microbevel with backhone passes on a waterstone. Again, this work best if there is still some tooth left that the finer hone fails to wipe away. The edge can still be a great performer after that point, but then it becomes tougher to keep the edge geometry. Picking up a knife blind and making a few critical swipes across the stone seems to lead eventually to the edge becoming a bit rounded over time. At that point the polishing hone cannot readily fix it and the process needs to be repeated.

Last is when doing a microbevel on a hard stone like ceramic or an EEF DMT. In that case I'll usually just transition to a hard strop for maintenance once the edge gets worn a bit. This sort of microbevel is one I use most often on other people's knives - makes a great edge that will hold for a few and maintenance going forward is not an issue - they use it till its dull and beyond, no upkeep planned.