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Is sharpening overrated?
- Thread starter drebs
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Agreed. In my kitchen 1000 grit would be considered a coarse stone for my purposes. I do strop throughout the day depending what knife and what I am prepping.
Russ
Yes I got the bonding method wrong, although there are several bonding methods depending on tool grade... I think I got it confused with "aluminium grit"...
Diamond hones don't last, and this is hugely worsened in the coarser grits, particulalry with anything coarse enough to do a hand re-profile on a knife...
If you don't do heavy re-profiling, and only touch up edges with "Medium" or "Fine", then yes maybe you can say they will last some time... Since the "out of the box" industry standard is 20° per side, so a pathetic and accident-prone 40° inclusive, and I feel I can go to half that without any chipping or rolling while chopping with big knives, then an extra-coarse diamond hone will be gone by the time one or two 9" knives are brought down from 40° inclusive to 20° inclusive: It doesn't matter if you go gently or not...: Going gently only means you work slower and longer, not that any "wear saving" is taking place per amount of removed metal...
As I said, "Extra-Coarse" lose grit far faster than smoother grits, because the individual diamonds are so much taller that the lateral forces wrench them off way easier, even if you go gently (because of higher leverage on their higher protruding height): The coarser you go the shorter lasting that level of grit will be...: If your experience is only touch-ups with fine grits you may think they last, but the coarser ones don't... They still work faster at first, but a 10° per side of angle change on ONE 9" blade will have seriously dented them, especially in stainless, and by the third knife even an 8" Extra-Coarse will do a very poor job, which is so bad it can actually ruin the outcome... I prefer 6" X 2" as the wear-cost seems better, and they are handier. One of my knife carries a 4" X 1" Coarse Dia-Sharp on the sheath.
Since a worn-out "Coarse" is equivalent to a "Fine" for me, they can last quite a while in that condition. Worn-out "Extra Coarse" tend to be useless, as the grit is too widely spaced to remain effective once most of it is gone...: All they do is scratch the edge finish with no progress...
I do a heavy re-profile once, and then tend to use most of my knives little: For those knives I use more regularly I use the worn "Coarse" for a slight re-profile, then I finish with my 20 year old medium stone (part of a triple-sided set, but I only use the "medium" stone).
I used to use the "Coarse" stone a lot, but over years it lost its flatness slightly (a previous identical set lost its "Coarse" flatness in days, so stones do vary a lot!): If the stone was passed on a sander it would be as good as a "Coarse" diamond for a good while...
For regular light use, stones do last longer, as described below in industrial applications:
"With a plated tool, wear has to be considered because there is only one layer of abrasive. When that wears, cutting action suffers. With a stone, cutting is consistent because the stone has a thickness. As one layer wears away, other abrasive grits are exposed."
One company called UKAM uses a system called "Smart Cut" that claims to have solved the low endurance of industial diamond plating with multiple layers:
I wonder if it might one day get applied to hand hones, but to me it seems to be intended mainly for high-speed powered applications, where the wear is perfectly even...
Gaston
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Your statement is just totally amazing: 40° inclusive is the industry-wide standard... How can you not know that?
Any knife-sharpening instruction sheet will always show lifting off the knife by 20°, including those that come with Randalls for the past 50 years at least...: This is straight from Randall's own site:
You do realize that this is a 40° inclusive edge?
http://www.randallknives.com/knife-care/
You do realize that "inclusive" means aggregating both sides?
Apparently Jimmy Lile doesn't, because on two of his $1800 knives I got, they came factory-new with 40° per side, so 80° inclusive...
I have NEVER seen a large fixed blade knife out of the box that was under 30° inclusive, so you can bet most knives you have seen in your life were at least 40° inclusive, and most were way, way over that... TOPS are typically 50° inclusive for instance...
It just amazes me to see many people in the field assume a 20° edge means it is a 20° angle that is cutting... It is exactly twice that... Maybe that is why so few complain about sharpness?!
Gaston
Hi Gaston,
I rarely make a post where anyone is totally amazed, must of said something of interest to someone.
There was a time, back when Jimmy Lile was living that 40 Degrees inclusive was the standard, but that is not the case with the vast majority of knife makers today. Much of the change is due to the many new steels coming on the market, these will take a much more acute edge geometry.
If a blade has the geometry to carry a 40 or 50 degree inclusive edge, the knife is extremely thin in cross section, with the thickness of the virgin material, not more than an 1/8 thick, even thinner would be desired. We are talking about knives that are being used. Not wall hangers.
If a blade is taken to zero at the edge then most any edge angle will function, the more acute the weaker the edge the more obtuse the stronger the edge.
ein
Any edge that is not taken to zero, the choice of edge angle narrows quickly depending on use. there is little need for a camp knife to be over 40 degrees even if its used for baton-ing. Any knife not being used for camp chores "deserves" a better edge than degrees in the 40's. In this shop we have not put an edge on a knife more obtuse than 36 degrees in ten years. The reason is, we build the knife to carry the edge, not the other way around. I know what edge angle I'm shooting for when the pattern is drawn.
If you're not thinking about shoulder thickness and "bulge" above the edge, early in the build then your not thinking far enough ahead. This thinking process is in demand when kitchen knives are being designed and built. Kitchen knives are built backwards, at least in this shop. If you know what your cutting in the kitchen, build the edge for that cutting purpose and the knife itself will follow. If the tool is not to be used for halving chickens in one fell blow, a kitchen knife should carry a 22 to 24 degree [inclusive] cutting edge. Anything more abtuse, will soon be tossed in a drawer. Hunting knives today are being ground in the low 30's [inclusive] maybe with a 36 micro bevel. Anything above this angle only tends to make the knife cut less efficiently.
I prefaced the OP saying there are pockets or areas of the country that still grind edges at these overly obtuse angles, I think much of it is as you said Gaston, they've been doing it for 50 years and haven't changed over that time. But time does march on. I'm getting some years on me but I continue to march on. We have adjusted our grinding as steels changed, as new geometries have come to light. There are quite a few, thousands these days, of people who grind with a Bubble Jig. They grind precise angle bevels using one and grind the edge at specific angles as well. This has had its effect on the conversation about knives. A Knife maker on the east coast can talk to a maker in California and knowing the actual angles of the knife being discussed, one maker can duplicate what the other has just told him about over the phone.
So you see I do understand the lingo, DPS and inclusive are words I use every day. I'm a teacher by choice and like to share with others what I've discovered, invented, or produced over the last 20 years. If you've learned something in this discourse I am pleased.
Regards, Fred
I met Jimmy Lile some ten years before I started in the knife making business.
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Well, my experience has been different, I've reground about 6 * ~4 inch knives ... so probably about the same amount of metal removed as two 9inch knives on these 4-sided-diamond-hone-block-92867 
went from 20~25 to ~10dps ... also sharpened a few dozen knives...
I went too rough a bunch of times and I knocked out some diamonds (very shiny) but still got most of the diamonds left (i think), and these stones still cut , I just did the 6th knife today
Yes, lots of people damage diamonds like how to sharpen a knife - Joe Calton
To have the diamonds last you have to go low force and a lot of strokes , which can be very slow
So my diamonds have lasted, but I prefer to use more force using dollar tree or norton economy stone ... not worried about damaging these stones they are hard
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I checked out their site, they do offer diamond laps in a number of diameters, the 6" or 8" could easily be used for sharpening, but they only offer up to 30 micron. For rough grinding it might be worth a quote. I have several lapidary diamond disks, but the rougher ones are so heavily plated they don't work well on steel. They work great for lapping waterstones and other vitreous stones.
They begin to work well for steel at about 320 grit and the 1200, 3000 are very effective on steel and seem to be very durable, at least the ones I've used.
Hi Gaston,
I rarely make a post where anyone is totally amazed, must of said something of interest to someone.
There was a time, back when Jimmy Lile was living that 40 Degrees inclusive was the standard, but that is not the case with the vast majority of knife makers today. Much of the change is due to the many new steels coming on the market, these will take a much more acute edge geometry.
I currently have two pre-dot 1980s knives by Jimmy Lile. Both of them were brand-new condition, unused-unsharpened, and had hardly any edge applied to them at all...: 40° per side, or V-edges around 80° inclusive.
The "Mission" had a 0.028" thick edge base, which I consider very good (Randalls are the best, typically at 0.020"). The Mission's surface finish was extremely rough, with cheap spray-can type black paint with almost no resistance to damage... After stripping this third-rate crap off, the blade showed a "swell" near the pliunge line, indicating the use of a sort of "dual grinder" to save on work: The blade otherwise was sound in symmetry, including the clip, which is very good, but the sandblasting was of a very rough nature...
My second Lile, a Sly II, was 0.045" at the edge -poor this time- and was also ground with an 80° inclusive edge... Having no paint, it had a finer sandblasting, but the "swells" this time were all along the blade on one side. I would consider the blade finish pathetic on that one, on the right side at least...
I don't know where you get that 40° inclusive is no longer the standard for big fixed blades...: Whether the Boker Apparo at 70°+ inclusive(!) or TOPS at 50-60°, the whole industry in a wide range of price ranges is way beyond 40° inclusive on large knives, and the bigger knife the more open the angle usually... Even my Chris Reeves Jereboam Mk II was slightly under 40° inclusive only near the guard, and then went way over that for the forward third of the blade...
On large fixed blade knives, I would say this industry currently has not the remotest clue what real sharpness is on big blades... I'm guessing we have decades of destruction testing to thank for this... Two major and consistent exceptions to this appear to be Randall Knives (for edge thinness) and Bark River knives on their convex edges. (Unfortunately, I have found that no matter how thinly ground, even with a zero edge, a convex edge is always noticeably inferior to a proper V-edge, for all purposes)
As to powder steels tolerating thinner edges and angles than older steels, I have not found this to be true at all...: My RJ Martin "Blackbird" is 0.040" thick at the edge and 30° inclusive (my edge, as it was 40° originally), in S30V, and in 30 chops it exhibited more edge rolling and edge damage than my Randall Model 12 did at 0.020" and less than 20° inclusive, in litterally hundreds of chops in the very same piece of wood... Both Lile's D-2 and Randall's 440B (and Farid's 440C) have proved to have litterally unkillable edges compared to RJ Martin's S30V, Chris Reeve's A-2, and many poorer iterations of 440C by makers such as Vaughn Neeley...
Vaughn Neeley's SA9 had a 0060" edge and was around 80° inclusive as well... And despite all this thickness, it still proved more fragile in the edge than a Randall at 0.020" and 20° inclusive... There is probably various geometry leverages -when hitting wood- that account for such enormous disparities in performance, since the cross-section of each blade was so different: It can't be all the steel... But in any case, when it came to holding on to the tip of the "V", much thicker edges so in vogue since the 60s often failed when "more fragile" edges held on...
Usually even duller more open angles will solve the issue on these lesser steels, but it is worth noting that Neeley's 440C and RJ Martin's S30V both failed despite thicker edges and more open angles than a competing Randall... Andrew Clifford's 440C Sly II held up at the same more open angle, but could not hold 20° inclusive while chopping wood, something Randall can do even below 20° all day long... This applies to some extent to Randall's O-1 too...
I really don't know where you get the notion that big fixed blades have gotten thinner-edged in recent years, and especially not that it is because of newer steels...: The only recent factory maker to follow that notion is probably Bark River Knives, and they don't use a "new steel" but instead mostly use A-2...
Gaston
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How can a knife remain sharp if it is used. I am in a good mood tonight so I will not insult you. It really depends what you did with the knife, + the quality of the steel, + the style of the edge{grind} etc. I don't shave anyone so I don't need my knives to be razor sharp, but I do like them to be VERY sharp, so I use various types of abrasive stones. Ranging from quite soft to VERY hard & aggressive depending on what I want to achieve. My kitchen knives get sharpened the most, + I have almost sharpened my paring knife to death! Too bad so sad! I will buy another one. That is the nature of knives, they only last so long depending on what you do with them. If you want them to last forever seal them in a block of acrylic and hang them on the wall! They will last FOREVER! But I like to use my knives so I sharpen them & that means that they will get scratch marks on them & you are removing some of the metal as you sharpen the edge. It's up to you what you want to do. I like VERY sharp knives so I suffer the consequences & wear them down in the process. Such Is my choice. Yours is up to you.
I'm with you. Use them happily + buy anew one when its gone. Plus I don't know how everyone else feels about this but I have found that like tires & cookies when they are "Cooked" the outer layer seems to be harder than the core. Once you break through into the core the knife is much easier to sharpen. It does wear faster once you have worn it out this far but, you fall in love with it because it cuts "SO fine" & like I said before buy another one when it is dead!
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Is sharpening overrated?
Not if you learn how to do it properly. Unfortunately learning to sharpen isn't easy because you typically cannot directly observe the correlation between actions and outcomes, and as a result all sorts of superstitious and/or counterproductive nonsense keeps getting recommended because it was mixed into a bunch of actions taken between a dull knife and a less dull one.
The fastest way to answer your questions would be this: Yesterday I took a friend of mine's VG-10 gyuto, made 2 very light passes into a my 1k waterstone (as if trying to saw it in half) to cut off the weakened metal from use, shaped the edge bevel freehand a SPS-II 1k stone until the edge no longer reflected light (allowing the slurry to keep the edge clean and burr free), then I applied an apex micro-bevel with 10 passes per side on a Spyderco Sharpmaker with the medium rods and obtained an apex that would cleanly push-cut newsprint across the grain at 90 degrees. It literally took less than 10 minutes from cutting off the old apex to finishing applying the new one. Using a sharpening technique that avoids burr formation also minimizes steel wastage compared to burr based sharpening methods.
On the subject of "honing" or touching up existing apexes, I would say that this is only a good idea if the apex has received minimal damage from use prior to being touched-up, and touch-ups should be made frequently to prevent apex damage from accumulating. Care must be taken because the amount of time necessary to touch-up an apex that has received too much damage from use can quickly start to match the amount of time it would take to sharpen from scratch. I generally figure that as soon as a touch-up on the same Spyderco rods I used to set the apex micro-bevel will not quickly bring the apex back to starting sharpness, it is time to re-sharpen the knife from scratch.
Finally, I would avoid strops entirely because they are extremely likely to round the apex due to the pliability of the substrates used, I would instead use a solid non-friable abrasive at a slightly raised angle to set an apex micro-bevel as you are much more easily able to get a clean, straight, non-rounded apex this way.
Not if you learn how to do it properly. Unfortunately learning to sharpen isn't easy because you typically cannot directly observe the correlation between actions and outcomes, and as a result all sorts of superstitious and/or counterproductive nonsense keeps getting recommended because it was mixed into a bunch of actions taken between a dull knife and a less dull one.
The fastest way to answer your questions would be this: Yesterday I took a friend of mine's VG-10 gyuto, made 2 very light passes into a my 1k waterstone (as if trying to saw it in half) to cut off the weakened metal from use, shaped the edge bevel freehand a SPS-II 1k stone until the edge no longer reflected light (allowing the slurry to keep the edge clean and burr free), then I applied an apex micro-bevel with 10 passes per side on a Spyderco Sharpmaker with the medium rods and obtained an apex that would cleanly push-cut newsprint across the grain at 90 degrees. It literally took less than 10 minutes from cutting off the old apex to finishing applying the new one. Using a sharpening technique that avoids burr formation also minimizes steel wastage compared to burr based sharpening methods.
On the subject of "honing" or touching up existing apexes, I would say that this is only a good idea if the apex has received minimal damage from use prior to being touched-up, and touch-ups should be made frequently to prevent apex damage from accumulating. Care must be taken because the amount of time necessary to touch-up an apex that has received too much damage from use can quickly start to match the amount of time it would take to sharpen from scratch. I generally figure that as soon as a touch-up on the same Spyderco rods I used to set the apex micro-bevel will not quickly bring the apex back to starting sharpness, it is time to re-sharpen the knife from scratch.
Finally, I would avoid strops entirely because they are extremely likely to round the apex due to the pliability of the substrates used, I would instead use a solid non-friable abrasive at a slightly raised angle to set an apex micro-bevel as you are much more easily able to get a clean, straight, non-rounded apex this way.
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Yes I got the bonding method wrong, although there are several bonding methods depending on tool grade... I think I got it confused with "aluminium grit"...
Diamond hones don't last, and this is hugely worsened in the coarser grits, particulalry with anything coarse enough to do a hand re-profile on a knife...
If you don't do heavy re-profiling, and only touch up edges with "Medium" or "Fine", then yes maybe you can say they will last some time... Since the "out of the box" industry standard is 20° per side, so a pathetic and accident-prone 40° inclusive, and I feel I can go to half that without any chipping or rolling while chopping with big knives, then an extra-coarse diamond hone will be gone by the time one or two 9" knives are brought down from 40° inclusive to 20° inclusive: It doesn't matter if you go gently or not...: Going gently only means you work slower and longer, not that any "wear saving" is taking place per amount of removed metal...
As I said, "Extra-Coarse" lose grit far faster than smoother grits, because the individual diamonds are so much taller that the lateral forces wrench them off way easier, even if you go gently (because of higher leverage on their higher protruding height): The coarser you go the shorter lasting that level of grit will be...: If your experience is only touch-ups with fine grits you may think they last, but the coarser ones don't... They still work faster at first, but a 10° per side of angle change on ONE 9" blade will have seriously dented them, especially in stainless, and by the third knife even an 8" Extra-Coarse will do a very poor job, which is so bad it can actually ruin the outcome... I prefer 6" X 2" as the wear-cost seems better, and they are handier. One of my knife carries a 4" X 1" Coarse Dia-Sharp on the sheath.
Since a worn-out "Coarse" is equivalent to a "Fine" for me, they can last quite a while in that condition. Worn-out "Extra Coarse" tend to be useless, as the grit is too widely spaced to remain effective once most of it is gone...: All they do is scratch the edge finish with no progress...
I do a heavy re-profile once, and then tend to use most of my knives little: For those knives I use more regularly I use the worn "Coarse" for a slight re-profile, then I finish with my 20 year old medium stone (part of a triple-sided set, but I only use the "medium" stone).
I used to use the "Coarse" stone a lot, but over years it lost its flatness slightly (a previous identical set lost its "Coarse" flatness in days, so stones do vary a lot!): If the stone was passed on a sander it would be as good as a "Coarse" diamond for a good while...
For regular light use, stones do last longer, as described below in industrial applications:
"With a plated tool, wear has to be considered because there is only one layer of abrasive. When that wears, cutting action suffers. With a stone, cutting is consistent because the stone has a thickness. As one layer wears away, other abrasive grits are exposed."
One company called UKAM uses a system called "Smart Cut" that claims to have solved the low endurance of industial diamond plating with multiple layers:
I wonder if it might one day get applied to hand hones, but to me it seems to be intended mainly for high-speed powered applications, where the wear is perfectly even...
Gaston
The harbor freight diamond sharpening plates tout "triple layer plating"... Even they last last longer then some of the quotes I am seeing in this thread. Just thought I would throw that out there... I have thinned out many cheap kitchen knives like dexter and victorinox on my first one and it still sharpens on all 4 sides. I recently splurged on a second one which set me back around 9 bucks. I have all the dmt plates too and a couple atoma plates but these suckers are a bargain.
Russ
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Personally I set all my GP edges at 30°, no higher than 32 and my Scandi and fine chopping/carving tools at 26.
That 30° applies to machetes, hatchets, etc, and even at relatively lower carbon 1070 and 1055 they hold up great. My backpacking trips usually require chopping through American Beach, one tough wood when seasoned - they used to make factory floors from it. Chips and even rolls are not in evidence unless I hit a knot and even then are an extremely rare occurrence.
At higher RC I suspect there will be more issues, and then you're back to the old balancing act of durability vs edge retention. I do not own any PM steel larger choppers.
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I believe this to be true as well and for the reasons stated. The idea is to clean the apex of slight edge distortion or minor flattening of the apex. Using a solid abrading surface is better suited than one where the material "wraps" around the apex. This is why I use an ERU to strop which has matching abrading surfaces, one on each side of the apex.
Fred
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I believe the above to be a slight simplification. I've looked at a lot of edges prep'd by a number of individuals using a number of means - what we produce seldom looks the way we believe it to look when we get up close, but the images do not lie.
The density of the stropping surface has to be taken into account, many of the harder stropping surfaces will not reveal any microscopic rounding at the apex. Any curvature is so gradual that the edge is straight along the apex, or at least well within any realistic tolerance level. The same can be said of backhoning on waterstones.
When one applies a micro bevel using more than a single pass, there is zero guarantee that the edge angle is exactly the same = effectively some rounding of the apex as the angles overlap along the edge. The only angle that matters will likely be the largest pass in the series and the micro back-bevel will show some rounding.
Even Fred's ERU, which is a nifty unit, is only going to be as accurate as the user's ability to hold the cutting tool dead centered in the notch. Again, as the tool shifts, the largest of the final passes will be the determinant and likely a slight rounding right behind it.
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Do you have access to an electron microscope? Unfortunately, only electron microscopes are capable of a sufficient level of magnification to observe a sharpened apex directly.
While some rounding will occur with a 5-10 pass micro-bevel due to angle variation, it is far less likely than with the micro-bevel generated by a pliable material deforming around--and potentially up and over--an apex. The same logic of a firmer stropping material generating less rounding should extend to a solid material generating even less rounding.
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Sand paper over a mouse pad is a good example of this. The bottom line, for me, Keep the apex straight and of a consistent geometry. If an edge is in this condition it is far easier to maintain.
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Not an electron microscope, but a metallurgical one. Terminal angles and relative/comparative amounts of convexity can be determined by using focal depth, especially if backlighting the edge. At 1000x this amounts to fractions of a micron - is pretty useful.
Whether or how much a material will shape the apex depends on a number of factors, especially when we're discussing freehand sharpening or finishing. For many users of harder strop backings, one is referencing the edge to a much larger surface area of the entire cutting bevel - as such it is possible to maintain tight tolerances with repeated passes. When microbeveling there is often no comparative feedback and the entire operation is muscle memory. Once you introduce the human element, we're now talking about margins of error not only of the materials but of the user. Ultimately I'm not declaring one better than the other, I use both, and sometimes neither when finishing edges off. But when going back and forth between resetting bevels and finish methods - if done properly you shouldn't see much difference one to the other in how much steel needs to be removed.
From my POV once the amount of deflection drops below a given threshold it ceases to be an issue worth debating compared to other factors. Just go back and forth between a fine diamond plate and any other surface of choice - relative deviation is easy to see.
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We each have to understand what is possible, when assessing an edge and know what to expect when using a particular technique. I use more than one process as well, depending on the edge being sharpened as well as keeping my skill level elevated in more than one technique. There is no single best way, keep an open mind and work to understand the process of sharpening.
I learn something new only if I'm receptive to learning something new. Keep an open mind, it will make you a better knife sharpener.
Fred
I learn something new only if I'm receptive to learning something new. Keep an open mind, it will make you a better knife sharpener.
Fred