xbxb
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Enaray got it right, wrap the bolster in rags, set it on an anvil and give the bolster a few wangos with the hammer. I've done this several times and it works great.
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Is "slight" blade play/wobble normal on slippies?
- Thread starter CL01
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Enaray got it right, wrap the bolster in rags, set it on an anvil and give the bolster a few wangos with the hammer. I've done this several times and it works great.
BJE
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I tried this once on a boker that has excess play, just light taps but the pin started coming through the bolster. It was visibly noticeable and I could feel it sticking up with my hand, pretty much ruined that knife for me. I would be cautious about doing this on a knife that holds value in its appearance.
knifeswapper
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It is fairly simple physics. If the spacing is correct, in that the backspring is the same size as the base of the blade (or the blade plus any shims); then there is a choice to be made. Since very few production knives are perfectly crafted, slight imperfection manifest in one of two ways. 1) This pin is installed / peened with a guage that leaves a little too much slack between the blade / liners which will allow some side to side movement; or 2) This pin is installed / peened without enough slack which will cause resistance and prohibit the "snap" we all love.
Now, we are in a day where production knives are made in the most cost effective means available. Custom knives generally differ in that the maker can afford to take the time to buff / clean all metal surfaces to eliminate as much friction as possible. Thus, when oiled, will allow free movement even when peened tight enough to eliminate all side to side movement. Then they can spend the time working this joint to find the perfect combination.
If minimal movement in production line knives is something that affects you significantly; you really should invest in 2-3 items. A buffer with a cratex and final buffing wheels (with compound); a small ball peen hammer to get started. Grind the "peen" side of the hammer to a "V". Get a used butter knife and cut it off about halfway down the blade and put a better edge on it (not sharp, just better). With these items you can fine tune the blade tension on any knife that is pinned together.
If it has play. Set the back bolster on a block of wood and lightly peen the top bolster until you get it like you want it; flipping it ever couple of taps. Taps may need to get heavier if required. Once you get it the way you want it; re-peen any pin that is showing and get it back semi-smooth with the cratex wheel. Then put the factory shine back on it with the buffing wheel.
If it is tight. Open the slow blade all the way and put the butter knife blade between the blade and liner wherein it (the butter knife) will be pinched at the base of the blade when you attempt to close the blade. Then slowly, and with constant checking, force the blade toward the closed position. This will pinch the butter knife and force space into the joint itself. Once you get it the way you want it; semi-smooth with the cratex wheel. Then put the factory shine back on it with the buffing wheel.
If it gets play back in it very soon after doing this; you are probably not using it as it should be used. Knives are not meant to be used with significant side pressure; and this will cause the joint to loosen prematurely.
You try this one time and you will probably never complain again, as it will become obvious what a time-consuming art getting this perfect joint requires. I know that if you set two identical Eye Brand stockman beside each other; one has perfect movement with a $100 price tag and one has blades that are a little slow with a price tag of $60. Most of us would choose the slightly less than perfect knife and put it to work. If you are the $100 guy, then call your favorite dealer and let him know you are willing to pay a 60% premium for a knife with completely smooth action. He may can fix you right up..
As for myself, I want the $100 knife for $60 and forget all that tweaking mess. But that may be a thing of the past. Maybe not, as a premium Hen & Rooster stockman was $70 in the late 70's / early 80's, and still is. The price hasn't gone up, but the fit / finish has gone down.
Now, we are in a day where production knives are made in the most cost effective means available. Custom knives generally differ in that the maker can afford to take the time to buff / clean all metal surfaces to eliminate as much friction as possible. Thus, when oiled, will allow free movement even when peened tight enough to eliminate all side to side movement. Then they can spend the time working this joint to find the perfect combination.
If minimal movement in production line knives is something that affects you significantly; you really should invest in 2-3 items. A buffer with a cratex and final buffing wheels (with compound); a small ball peen hammer to get started. Grind the "peen" side of the hammer to a "V". Get a used butter knife and cut it off about halfway down the blade and put a better edge on it (not sharp, just better). With these items you can fine tune the blade tension on any knife that is pinned together.
If it has play. Set the back bolster on a block of wood and lightly peen the top bolster until you get it like you want it; flipping it ever couple of taps. Taps may need to get heavier if required. Once you get it the way you want it; re-peen any pin that is showing and get it back semi-smooth with the cratex wheel. Then put the factory shine back on it with the buffing wheel.
If it is tight. Open the slow blade all the way and put the butter knife blade between the blade and liner wherein it (the butter knife) will be pinched at the base of the blade when you attempt to close the blade. Then slowly, and with constant checking, force the blade toward the closed position. This will pinch the butter knife and force space into the joint itself. Once you get it the way you want it; semi-smooth with the cratex wheel. Then put the factory shine back on it with the buffing wheel.
If it gets play back in it very soon after doing this; you are probably not using it as it should be used. Knives are not meant to be used with significant side pressure; and this will cause the joint to loosen prematurely.
You try this one time and you will probably never complain again, as it will become obvious what a time-consuming art getting this perfect joint requires. I know that if you set two identical Eye Brand stockman beside each other; one has perfect movement with a $100 price tag and one has blades that are a little slow with a price tag of $60. Most of us would choose the slightly less than perfect knife and put it to work. If you are the $100 guy, then call your favorite dealer and let him know you are willing to pay a 60% premium for a knife with completely smooth action. He may can fix you right up..
As for myself, I want the $100 knife for $60 and forget all that tweaking mess. But that may be a thing of the past. Maybe not, as a premium Hen & Rooster stockman was $70 in the late 70's / early 80's, and still is. The price hasn't gone up, but the fit / finish has gone down.
Thanks Knifeswapper, I always wondered what the proper remedy would be for a knife with nice bolsters and such. Might give it a try sometime
In the past 5 years, when it comes to slipjoints, I've bought 4 custom, 4 case, 4 queen, 2 swiss army, one DoukDouk, one Martin, one Northwoods and two leatherman. None of them had any play. Don't accept play in any production knife, send it back to the dealer or manufacturer if bought on the internet. Don't buy it in the first place if you're at a show or store. Tell the staff that play is not acceptable. If you accept blade play...you are a sucker.
KnifeHead
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This is really an interesting thread. You'd think a mechanical device as simple as a pocket knife would be easy to get to work perfectly every time one dropped off the end of the production line, but apparently they aren't that easy.
One thing that bugs me a little bit about the use of "blade play" or "wobble" to describe side to side movement of folder blades is the fact that rarely is that movement quantified in any way during the discussion. maybe it can't or shouldn't be quantified since some believe it is unacceptable.
If the liners are hard against the tang, there won't be any play but the action will be lazy and you won't have crisp movement or snap, walk n talk, etc of the blade. There has to be SOME RELIEF in the pivot area or the knife just won't work like we expect them to.
If the spring is too weak in a knife, chances are it's going to be more difficult for the maker to achieve a play-free joint. The spring load needs to overcome the friction of the liners pressing against the spring and tang to achieve a play-free joint. Make the spring load too high, broken springs can occur, and have. Make them too weak and they're slackening the joints to get good blade action. This can be where "excessive play" is introduced.
I'm of the opinion that some play is necessary and that the ideal situation is that blade play is darn near imperceptable. However, I would rather have a knife with "slight play" that worked rather than one that was too tight and sluggish? As some have said, a little play doesn't hurt the function of the knife.
I wish I knew of a way to quantify acceptable blade play but I think every knife is different when it gets put together. In this thread some have said it doesn't bother them while others have said any play is unacceptable so we aren't going to agree on a correct answer. All I know is, whatever gives bouancy to your particular water craft is whut ya got right there.
I particularly enjoyed this comment by Knifeswapper:
You try this one time and you will probably never complain again, as it will become obvious what a time-consuming art getting this perfect joint requires.
Boy is that the truth! I'll go one further and say, try putting together a slip joint kit or better yet, make one from scratch and tell us how that goes. :thumbup:
PS. I thought you all might like to see how to introduce blade play into your very own slip joint. If it seems to be going a little slow....use a bigger hammer.
This is actually one way to slacken the liner pressure against the tang.
One thing that bugs me a little bit about the use of "blade play" or "wobble" to describe side to side movement of folder blades is the fact that rarely is that movement quantified in any way during the discussion. maybe it can't or shouldn't be quantified since some believe it is unacceptable.
If the liners are hard against the tang, there won't be any play but the action will be lazy and you won't have crisp movement or snap, walk n talk, etc of the blade. There has to be SOME RELIEF in the pivot area or the knife just won't work like we expect them to.
If the spring is too weak in a knife, chances are it's going to be more difficult for the maker to achieve a play-free joint. The spring load needs to overcome the friction of the liners pressing against the spring and tang to achieve a play-free joint. Make the spring load too high, broken springs can occur, and have. Make them too weak and they're slackening the joints to get good blade action. This can be where "excessive play" is introduced.
I'm of the opinion that some play is necessary and that the ideal situation is that blade play is darn near imperceptable. However, I would rather have a knife with "slight play" that worked rather than one that was too tight and sluggish? As some have said, a little play doesn't hurt the function of the knife.
I wish I knew of a way to quantify acceptable blade play but I think every knife is different when it gets put together. In this thread some have said it doesn't bother them while others have said any play is unacceptable so we aren't going to agree on a correct answer. All I know is, whatever gives bouancy to your particular water craft is whut ya got right there.
I particularly enjoyed this comment by Knifeswapper:
You try this one time and you will probably never complain again, as it will become obvious what a time-consuming art getting this perfect joint requires.
Boy is that the truth! I'll go one further and say, try putting together a slip joint kit or better yet, make one from scratch and tell us how that goes. :thumbup:
PS. I thought you all might like to see how to introduce blade play into your very own slip joint. If it seems to be going a little slow....use a bigger hammer.
This is actually one way to slacken the liner pressure against the tang.
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For most purists, blade play is an unacceptable imperfection, whether it is a slippie, linerlock, framelock, or lockblade. There was an article about this in a recent issue of Blade. That being said, depending on the price and the knife, I'll tolerate .004" of play (a little more than the thickness of a fresh dollar bill) but nothing more. As already stated, if Victorinox can make millions of knives annually for more than 100 years, without blade play, we shouldn't have it.
To measure play, try and slide a crisp $1 bill between the blade and the liner, if it just fits that's about .004". If you can double it over and get it in there, you have unacceptable blade play.
To measure play, try and slide a crisp $1 bill between the blade and the liner, if it just fits that's about .004". If you can double it over and get it in there, you have unacceptable blade play.
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KnifeHead
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That's a bubba tape dispenser
Honestly I have no idea. I'm still tryin to figure out where to stick the dollar bill.
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My opinion is worth about $.02 but here it is anyway, comparing bolstered slippies to swiss army style slippies is comparing apples to oranges. Victorinox pivot pins appear to be spun on the aluminum scaled knifes (I can't see the pins with their plastic scaled knifes so I couldn't even guess), while the (from what I understand) pivot pins on most bolstered knives have been peened to fill in a countersunk space in the bolster. (Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong)
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The tape on the other end on the mallet, is there so when the mallet after several blows and nothings happening, it get one helluva blow and bounces" b-o-i-n-g" you guessed it right between the eyes...
KnifeHead
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Plastic handles brings up another good point. Natural handle materials such as bone, stag, and ivory can "move" and will sometimes change the way a slip joint works. Plastic just lays there nice and quiet like and...uh...looks like plastic. Tacticals(is it ok to say "tacticals" here? ) don't have these issues and they also have screws(is it ok to say "screws" here ) to adjust the action.
) don't have these issues and they also have screws(is it ok to say "screws" here ) to adjust the action.
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Well, as I said, some of my slippies don't have any play, but the ones that do, it is VERY slight. It just seems like the "nature of the beast." I agree that SAKs don't seem to have ANY play, but aren't they made differently? FWIW, the 2 that I have that have "some" play are a Stockman & a 2 bladed Trapper style knives.
Thanks again for all the answers/comments.
Thanks again for all the answers/comments.
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For me its OK with a little movement. I draw the line like this. If I can feel a small movement within my hands testing its ok, but if I cas see it with my eys its to much.
Bosse
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I couldn't quote everyone here since I'm replying to multiple posts.
1) SAKs are built in layers, and the whole knife is held together with brass pins and rivets which can be removed (with great difficulty, unless you have a special tool). The rivets hold the WHOLE knife together, and when removed you get the aluminum layers and all the tools from the knife separated, including the blade. There is no "separate" pivot for the blade and if memory serves me correctly, there are three brass pins on 91 mm models that hold the whole thing together. The scales are pressed onto the rivet heads and pins and are held by friction. The pins are not "spun on" but pressed in VERY tightly, which is one reason why there is virtually no blade play.
2) Try to slide the bill between the blade and the liner, whatever it may be.
3) Handle material should have NOTHING to due with blade play. The mechanical unit we are looking at is the blade, pivot, and liners/bolster/frame. Handle material is pinned, epoxied, inlayed, glued or whatever to the frame or liner and is considered a separate mechanical unit.
4) Not all "tacticals" are screwed, almost all production pieces are, but some handmades are pinned. I have a Prinsloo that is pinned, and was actually hoping it WAS screwed, since it has...guess what...
BLADE PLAY!:grumpy:
5) Blade play can be found in any style of knife and is not the nature of the slippie beast or anything else. It simply has to do with the tolerances (or more appriately LACK of desired tolerance) of the blade/pivot unit.
1) SAKs are built in layers, and the whole knife is held together with brass pins and rivets which can be removed (with great difficulty, unless you have a special tool). The rivets hold the WHOLE knife together, and when removed you get the aluminum layers and all the tools from the knife separated, including the blade. There is no "separate" pivot for the blade and if memory serves me correctly, there are three brass pins on 91 mm models that hold the whole thing together. The scales are pressed onto the rivet heads and pins and are held by friction. The pins are not "spun on" but pressed in VERY tightly, which is one reason why there is virtually no blade play.
2) Try to slide the bill between the blade and the liner, whatever it may be.
3) Handle material should have NOTHING to due with blade play. The mechanical unit we are looking at is the blade, pivot, and liners/bolster/frame. Handle material is pinned, epoxied, inlayed, glued or whatever to the frame or liner and is considered a separate mechanical unit.
4) Not all "tacticals" are screwed, almost all production pieces are, but some handmades are pinned. I have a Prinsloo that is pinned, and was actually hoping it WAS screwed, since it has...guess what...
BLADE PLAY!:grumpy:
5) Blade play can be found in any style of knife and is not the nature of the slippie beast or anything else. It simply has to do with the tolerances (or more appriately LACK of desired tolerance) of the blade/pivot unit.
BJE
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Alot of people on here must have a VERY difficult time finding a knife they are willing to keep if they accept no blade play. Some of my favorite knives have at least a little play. I can't even feel a little play when I actually use them, only when I wiggle the blade, so why is this such a big deal? Alot of blade wobble is a bad thing, but I don't see the harm in a little unless it is a very expensive peice or a custom.