Is the .22LR the most versatile caliber for urban/wilderness survival.

[Cpl Punishment]

Yep, fairly static, she was on the ground, dog clamped on. There wasn't much need for the dog to be hauling ass. He shot it through the top of the head, near contact. Dog probably would have been better off to let go and take a swipe at him, then run off. But then, they don't think like we do.

That was just to establish that they can and will attack a full grown, healthy human.

Now, for the spraying thing. That's just something peculiar to me, perhaps. I tend to shoot them before they clamp on. You know, while they are running. Running very, very fast.

 

[PrimitiveMan]

That you can in a 12 gauge.

I would prefer going into the fray with a 12 gauge pumper, but realistically, a 20 gauge might be better.

Maybe my 1911 and a .22 isn't a bad combo after all.

The .45 is a formidable defense round, I can kill a deer with it at 20 yards (I bowhunt) and the .22 can do the rest.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

I'm keeping my answers to off the shelf solutions.

If you want to talk handloading, we can really turn this into a can of worms.

 

[The Government]

my favorite rifle of all time for recreational shooting is:

My good old Savage single shot .22.

It has those old fashion iron sights that put the lead on target every time. It makes really good use of ammo too, since loading is so slow, every shot is taken to count.

For survival I would think that a semi-auto or bolt action .22 would be great. However, if I lived in grizzly territory, I would want some heavier firepower (just in case).

 

[PrimitiveMan]

you can buy off the shelf 20 gauge in everything from Buckshot and slugs to rabbit shot.

What shot can't you get in 20 gauge?

 

[raybadge]

I have to weigh in with the 12 gage guys. It's true that there's nothing light about that firearm and it has a shorter range, but it doesn't require a lot of skill, it's reliable, and it will bring home just about anything - all advantages in bad, survival conditions. You can absolutely depend on that thing.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

What shot can't you get in 20 gauge?

OK, they may exist, but I've never seen

T, F, BBB, BB, B, 2 birdshot in 20 gauge, and I've only seen 2 and 3 Buck in 20 gauge.

Not saying you necessarily NEED those shot sizes, but I haven't seen them in 20 ga, thus fewer options.

 

[PayetteRucker]

Proud owner of a Remington 510 Targetmaster, singleshot, breaks down with a single screw to fit in a pack and dead accurate past 50 yards. .243 is my favorite field caliber, it can take deer down to rabbits and everything in between with reliability, accuracy and good range. If you don't have a good .22 get one-it's one thing every American should own.

 

[PrimitiveMan]

I know you can get 00 buck and slugs, 4,5,6,7 shot , if that doesn't cover it.....

 

[C Bryant]

Actually I am sure a lot will think me crazy for saying this, but I don't even think a mountain lion is a big enough animal to hunt humans. It certainly is much more capable of doing so then dogs, but again for a mountain lion to attack even a small group of humans would probably be a rare thing. I'm not doubting that it can happen, I just think that it would be rare thing because that mountain lion would be taking an awfully big risk of injury or death during the attack.

They certainly can, and almost yearly around here they certainly do. Just about every year there is a mountain lion attack in Southern California. True many of the cats are fairly small, but there are some seriously large ones out there. You tell me if a 250-300lb cat with a paw print about the size of my hand would hunt a human. Rare that they are "hunting" humans, but when a lone individual or even a couple go strolling by, a hungry cat will take the opportunity. I do agree that they are not going to go hunting a group of humans, thats not what they do. But lone or very few people, especially if they are spread out and easy to single out..... definitely. Personally I'm more wary of Mtn Lions than bears when I'm out and about in the woods. Then again I'm in So Cal, the lion population is rather large. As far as a .22 doing the job... if it was all I had, I would a pretty fair amount of confidence that it would at least stop one. Granted, you typically are not going to see a mtn. lion coming, if you do I doubt you would have much time to do anything about it before it was on you. They like to get close first.

 

[PayetteRucker]

Mountain lions are a HUGE issue out west right now. As urban sprawl pushes outward towards what was hunting territory for lions, it is easier for them to hunt domestic cats and dogs than it is to compete with the ever growing wolf population, hunters and bears for deer and elk. They are becoming bolder and bolder to humans, and aggressive acts have become increasingly numberous over the years. There's a book about the lion issue right now, called the Beast in the Garden, and sheds alot of concern about the real problem of mountain lions. If you don't think mountain lions will try to eat a person, think again. Mountain bikers especially seem to be victim to mountain lion attacks. They are literally starving, and that fine line between hunter and prey is getting even thinner. As for me, I don't hit the foothills unless I have my .357 wheel gun in my pack.

 

[Normark]

Hey Guys...

Ohh Ya the Mountain Lion for Sure can and will attack humans...

There was one an hour or so away that took a horse,, so a human, for sure...

Here's a couple of links on them here in Ontario

http://www.ontariopuma.ca/

http://209.157.64.200/focus/chat/2244892/posts?page=15


I remember a few years ago a member of the Hoodlums forum ( I Think Lou), his son was chased while off road mountain biking, but forget if he was jumped or just tailed by the animal.

Doesn't happen often, however it does happen, and they are quite capable of doing so...

ttyle

Eric
O/ST

 

[greater]

A giant kitty think a ten needle sharp knives 5 on each paw (claws) slicing you up (ever read about how nasty a knife attack or fight is, well consider this the ultimate.) I bet those cats instinctively know where to rip gashes in you (vital veins and arteries.)

I saw a show on television (reality type) where a game warden was warning people about raising bob cats in their home he said even a small one can kill a human in a blink of an eye.

 

[ieraseu]

They certainly can, and almost yearly around here they certainly do. Just about every year there is a mountain lion attack in Southern California. True many of the cats are fairly small, but there are some seriously large ones out there. You tell me if a 250-300lb cat with a paw print about the size of my hand would hunt a human. Rare that they are "hunting" humans, but when a lone individual or even a couple go strolling by, a hungry cat will take the opportunity. I do agree that they are not going to go hunting a group of humans, thats not what they do. But lone or very few people, especially if they are spread out and easy to single out..... definitely. Personally I'm more wary of Mtn Lions than bears when I'm out and about in the woods. Then again I'm in So Cal, the lion population is rather large. As far as a .22 doing the job... if it was all I had, I would a pretty fair amount of confidence that it would at least stop one. Granted, you typically are not going to see a mtn. lion coming, if you do I doubt you would have much time to do anything about it before it was on you. They like to get close first.

I do not disagree with any of this. A mountain lion will attack a human in 'desperation mode'........meaning it's starving, or protecting it's young, or otherwise very stressed.

However, keep in mind that in nature there are no hospitals to 'patch up' if you get injured. When a mountain lion attacks a human, even a knife stab, spear stab or 22LR round will probably be fatal. Oh, not right away of course, but a few days later blood loss or infection or simply disabling it from hunting will prove to be a killing blow.

Mountain lions and other animals may not know about guns, but they do know that attacking an animal as large as a human (in proportion to their size) is dangerous. They are taking an awful risk doing so, and it's not something that I expect them to do ordinarily.

This is just one human.....now against two or three or four.........what chance does the mountain lion have of escaping unscathed? Those are not good odds, and I think they are smart enough to know that.

Edit: And for the record I am not saying that mountain lions will never attack humans, I am just saying that it's not something that is a common occurrence because it's just too risky for a mountain lion to attack another large predator the size of a human.

By the same token humans have killed elephants with nothing more then a knife, and I don't mean a whole group....I mean a single human has been able to take an elephant with nothing more then a knife. It's possible, but there is just too much potential risk.

 

[C Bryant]

I do not disagree with any of this. A mountain lion will attack a human in 'desperation mode'........meaning it's starving, or protecting it's young, or otherwise very stressed.

However, keep in mind that in nature there are no hospitals to 'patch up' if you get injured. When a mountain lion attacks a human, even a knife stab, spear stab or 22LR round will probably be fatal. Oh, not right away of course, but a few days later blood loss or infection or simply disabling it from hunting will prove to be a killing blow.

Mountain lions and other animals may not know about guns, but they do know that attacking an animal as large as a human (in proportion to their size) is dangerous. They are taking an awful risk doing so, and it's not something that I expect them to do ordinarily.

This is just one human.....now against two or three or four.........what chance does the mountain lion have of escaping unscathed? Those are not good odds, and I think they are smart enough to know that.

Edit: And for the record I am not saying that mountain lions will never attack humans, I am just saying that it's not something that is a common occurrence because it's just too risky for a mountain lion to attack another large predator the size of a human.

By the same token humans have killed elephants with nothing more then a knife, and I don't mean a whole group....I mean a single human has been able to take an elephant with nothing more then a knife. It's possible, but there is just too much potential risk.

Agreed. I guess I'm just a little biased too. In my neck of the woods I'd be willing to guess due to ever increasing population and urban expansion there is a larger than average amount of .....lets say hungrier than normal lions. Thirst too is a big draw for lions around here to move closer to people. Our drought has left very little water in the foothills.

 

[ROCK6]

Well, I wouldn’t say it’s the most versatile, but I think a good .22LR would be excellent for a light-weight tool for the backwoods. Even in an urban setting, the .22LR can still be effective and it is most definitely inexpensive to stock for. I don’t recommend letting a .22LR be your self-defensive weapon, but for hunting (deer and smaller), plinking, and knee-capping/groin shooting (think Israelis), the .22 is more than adequate.

I do have to agree that the shotgun (12 or 20 gauge) is much more versatile, but a sufficient load-out on foot would be pretty cumbersome. For the backwoods, a small load-out would suffice and a single barrel H&R would be more than adequate. Now, if you’re talking from a defensive perspective, I would only recommend a quality 12 gauge (pump preferably).

With a nice little .22LR pistol or rifle and a decent amount of quality ammo, I would be more than comfortable anywhere in the lower 48…sure there’s some risk of the big cats and bears, but staying alert is more important than the caliber you’re carrying. I will say I’ve run into a couple of mountain lions (hunting and hiking) and they scare me as much as a pack of feral dogs…both of which are serious threats to a sole hiker/hunter.

Regardless of your viewpoint on a versatility of a .22LR pistol or rifle, I think everybody should have a couple in their inventory…they would be worth their weight in gold for 90% of the tasks a firearm could be used for outside of major offensive or defensive situations.

ROCK6

 

[PayetteRucker]

Rossi (yes I know many of you consider to be an iffy company) makes a nice break action singleshot platform that you can interchange between .22, .223, .243, 410, 20ga and 12ga. You just shoot them an email with what 3 calibers you want and they'll send it to you in a rollup nylon case. They work well, sure you won't get MOA accuracy from them but definitely enough to take a deer, goose, turkey or rabbit at range. It's a good kit. The rule of thumb with a mountain lion is, for every second they are on you, it is another 100 stitches. That means for one 3 second encounter you will sustain enough cutting that it will take 300 stitches to close you up.

 

[ieraseu]

A lot of people are taking exception to that mountain lion comment, so let's break it down a little bit.

Let's say an average human is about 175lbs give or take. An average mountain lion is almost certainly less then that, but let's give him 200lbs just for the heck of it (which still makes him very vulnerable to small caliber fire, btw).

Now you might at this point be thinking that it's not an even match despite the weight similarities because the mountain lion has teeth and claws and reflexes that a typical human can't match. That's true and I don't dispute it, but then again the human has a few things going for him also.

One of these is tool use..........ever since stone age days humans have carried spears, knives, clubs, and more recently firearms. I'd say that's pretty significant. Also humans historically have not been solitary hunters. In very recent modern times some have done so, but this typically can be seen as more for 'fun' or recreation then for actual survival. Historically humans are very social animals and have hunted and lived in families or groups.

It's very unlikely that during a 'disaster or infrastructure collapse' that people will want to just 'go out solo' into the wilderness. Why would they? They could band together to pool their resources and efforts. The same as all humans have done throughout history, and the same way that primitive tribes in Africa still do today.

So what this boils down to is that it's really not logical for mountain lions to see humans as an animal that is easy or even feasible prey. In fact, I would even go on to say that if mountain lions as a species had decided to hunt humans, they would now probably be extinct because of all the injuries they would have sustained trying to take down a more intelligent, tool using predator that is very social in nature.

Evolution does not make mistakes......mountain lions or feral dogs are not now, nor have they ever been a 'significant' threat to humans. It just would not make sense for animals of that size to even attempt it.

Now say a grizzly or kodiak bear........yeah, 900 lbs versus a 175lb human, that would be a significant enough advantage that they could probably consider humans small enough to actually hunt.

 

[PayetteRucker]

They are starving. They take 175lb deer all the time. I've been shooting my entire life and I think a lion in a dire situation would still be too fast for me to make a lethal shot with a .357 mag. Cats are serious business. They are masters of camouflage and are close relatives to the fastest land animal on earth. I would put my money on a stalking lion over an unwary but armed hiker any day. I'm not saying they are out killing hundreds of people-though they have in the past-its just if they are hungry and given the chance they will not think twice about jumping a human. Once again, like wild dogs and wolves, it comes down to hunter/prey instinct. If they are hungry a wandering human looks no different to them than a grazing deer.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

ieraseu- you seem to know very little about mountain lions. They are strong for their size and stalk their prey. If they are hungry, that prey will be you.