Is the Busse warranty "unconditionally" a desirable thing?

Will York

Will York

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Jan 21, 2000
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Okay, so here's the tail end of a discussion that developed in an unrelated thread, so thought we might move it to its own discussion thread.

The question has to do with the obvious demand for a longer, thinner machete-type blade of INFI. Here were some representative remarks:

resinguy said:
However, isn't 3/16 a tad thick for a machete? I keep talking up a Scrapper in 1/8" S7, 14" blade, Rec-C.
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I agree. Just am not sure how far the envelope can be pushed and stay within the limits of the steel in terms of the unconditional warranty. Thinner is definitely better for a machete, I agree.

I think what we're seeing is the potential intersection of two business models:

One (Busse) that says, "If we build a knife strong enough to guarantee it unconditionally, we can use that warranty for marketing leverage to produce a very high quality product for which people will gladly pay a premium price."

VS.

The business model of inexpensive blade (inc. machete) mfrs worldwide, which says something like, "If we can build a knife cheaply enough to make it disposable and keep the Rc hardness low enough to make it tough so it will have decent longevity under hard use, we can make a super-thin, super-fast long blade that will be an effective hacker on a wide range of materials and be affordable enough that even agrarian populations of third world countries can afford to buy them in large quantities."

The models are mutually exclusive until you get to the point where a knife design breaches the physical limitations of the steel in the first model, at which point you have a very expensive knife that is competing against a very cheap knife, and no longer with benefit of an unconditional warranty.

I think what most of us have come to understand is that INFI has so many other characteristics that make it so much better than other knife steels, that we would like to have the benefit of the steel and Jerry's heat treat in a wider range of blade applications, even though that range takes the product outside its limitations in terms of being "certifiably indestructible".

So the trick in my mind is how to let Busse off the hook for an indestructible product so that we can get to use INFI in blades which do not fit the "too thick to fail" model.

Does this line of thinking make sense to anyone else?
 
I totally understand what you're saying. You'll never have a thinner model like the Machete's you see at a surplus store.

That is COMPLETELY fine with me, because I'm choosing to buy something that's not a knife, it's a beast. My arm will give out long before my Busse.
 
it's similar to the line of thinking when folders have been discussed around here.

personally, I hope Jerry and crew never offer anything less than the current warranty, both for my benefit, and the consistency of the brand and what we've all come to expect and love about the Busse experience. It's almost like asking Ruth's Chris or the like to get into the .99 cent burger business... why?

I also think that 1/8" INFI is (or, rather, would still be) plenty strong enough to offer the lifetime warranty, and I don't think they're making it thick to avoid breakage as much as it's just the style of his designs and an attribute most customers appreciate most of the time. The thickness (with the BAD being a clear and contrary example) is part of the whole experience, and surely BAD or a BWM is thin enough for most all situations. no?

but hey, what do I know. ;)

interesting topic in any case.
 
This is why I think we will never see a production Busse folder. It is a lose-lose situation for Jerry.

If he keeps the warranty intact, we all know that there are those who are going to abuse and misuse the folder, which in no way can ever be as strong as a fixed blade. Some will even consider it a challenge to destroy the knife.

If he offered the folder but backed off on the famous Busse warranty, some would criticize loudly about that, also.

Personally, if I had a Busse folder, I would resolve that any damage I did to it through deliberate abuse or gross stupidity would be on my dime, not Busse's. In fact, I have already resolved to abide by that same position on the fixed blades.
 
If people what a matchete then there are plenty of good ones on the market now, no they are not INFI, but they are matchetes.

I wouldn't offer one either if I was Jerry, the same with a folder.
 
I think Jerry knows exactly what we are asking for. The BWM is probably as close as we will get to a machete, whether it is due to the fact that the warranty would be difficult to uphold with the required blade geometry or it doesn't fit the Busse format.

I would personally rather have the warranty. Besides, I am kind of with Horndog on this when I say I believe the BWM is a type of machete. I have one machete I purchased in Brazil that is a Tramontina (made in Brazil). It measures at a 10" blade with 15.5" OAL and the blade thickness is 1/8". Other than blade thickness that is awfully close to the BWM.
 
I'm with Mr. York on this issue, at least so far as a Busse machete would go.
Thin is necessary for a machete to do its thing, my battle mistresses are too thick to duplicate machete performance. I wouldn't have have a problem with Busse, um, bending (get it?) the warranty to do a machete. I think a Busse machete in thinner stock would be awesome, still more durable than the $10 machetes you can get, with better edge retention, all the other good stuff that goes with INFI. So what if it's not made for splitting a cord of wood, all the other Busses ever made are up to that job, a machete is just another specialized blade form.

This would make more sense to me than Busse doing a BAD or Cultellus, though don't get me wrong, I love them too.

What I'd really like to see though (and probably never will): Longer double-edged blades in the usual thick stock.
 
I really agree that Busse should stay with their solid knives and warranty. I think its best to focus on what works for them and stick with it.
 
I understand what Will York is saying, but to me, Busse knives are the toughest in the world, and every knife they make is darn near invincible, and I would hate to see them make a knife that would ever cause a buyer to have to ask the question, "Is this one of the good ones, or is it one of the ones that may break?"
 
I think it's really very simple: Busse should make any and every product they can make money off of, AND offer their current (practically unlimited) guarantee on.
That guarantee is almost unique, it's certainly a Unique Selling Point. Couple it with the fact that 99.9% of people never even need it (the product IS that strong), and you've got a Busse.
Anything less, and it's not a Busse.

That's why Busse should never make a folder, IMO. It can and will break, without much trying. In fact, many would say it's broken when you buy it. ;)

So back to the OP's point: A thin Busse should be no problem if Busse feels comfortable with the current guarantee. If they make a blade that they feel they cannot guarantee the same way, then don't call it a Busse. Or don't make it.
 
I don't see why length would be a problem in 3/16". Isn't the AK 18+" and 3/16" thick? It has the warranty... The blade would only have to be about 1/4" to 3/8" wider than the AK, and 16" long. Full height convex grind and you're good to go. :thumbup:
 
Will, you made a suggestion in another thread that could be the way out of this conundrum. Everyone seems to agree that the Busse warranty is critical to the Brand. (oddly enough, that warranty is not explicitly described on the Busse Combat site). But if a thinner, longer blade came out of Scrap Yard, where the warranty excludes intentional damage, then we could get a superior Bussekin product that won't break the company to offer.
 
Busse Warranty: "With a steel like INFI it's easy to understand why we offer the toughest guarantee in the business. We guarantee against any and all unintentional MAJOR damage forever."

Scrap Yard Warranty: "Our guarantee is simple. We warrant your knife against any and all unintentional MAJOR damage for life. The Scrap Yard guarantee is on the knife and NOT just for the original owner"

I don't read any difference. Do you?
 
100% yes.

HOWEVER. more companies need to take the singular goal approach. it's cool for a company to produce a little of everything, but the whole reason (to me at least) that busse has had so much success is there sole concentration on a singular goal: to create a steel and a knife that cannot reasonably be broken by hand, that will not chip at high hardness (and preferably corrosion resistant). This goal oriented approach has given us infi, and a lot of bulky designs - but busse has achieved the goal in spades.


we now need a company that will do something similar for thin knives, which will need a different steel, heat treatment, and design protocol.
 
I just have to weigh in and say although it would be cool if scrapyard offered one (Busse would be too expensive for what you can buy for 10 dollars), a variety of 10-20 dollar machetes get the job done. I bought a machete at walmart for 7 dollars, I reground/convexed it and it did what a machete was meant for perfectly. It didn't hold a great edge, but in a pinch I could sharpen it against a rock.. it was only 7 dollars. After a year of use the handle finally came loose. You know what I did? Threw it away and bought another one.

I like my machetes to be disposable sub 20 dollar tools. I like not having to worry about whacking a rock by mistake or digging out a firepit with one.
 
If I was guaranteed the same quality controlled product, outstanding customer service, and was able to talk to others who are as passionate as I am about it, I would buy any blade Busse had to offer that fit my interests.

Only a fool would be upset that a folder did not have the same "indestructible" warranty as a .170+ fixed blade. It is a folder, a cutting tool, not a pry bar. If you need a pry bar, go buy one, or use a BM. :)

The most important aspect of INFI for me is the edge retention, and a thiner blade (I would think) could still accommodate that.

Now that I am all pumped up, I'm going to make some fuzz sticks.
 
Last Visible Canary said:
This goal oriented approach has given us infi, and a lot of bulky designs - but busse has achieved the goal in spades.

we now need a company that will do something similar for thin knives, which will need a different steel, heat treatment, and design protocol.
Click to expand...
How thin do you want to go? Busse's are as thin as any fixed blade - not counting kitchen knives.
 
I don't think INFI is really the optimum steel for a machete (I know, you can start stoning me now). I think it would roll too easily at the necessary thickness/grind.

I love the stuff, too (over 20 Busse's) but it's not really the answer to life, the universe and everything.

I would like to see a folder- how about a modified warranty- the blade is unconditional, but if you break the knife it's on you?
 
.

Lets be real, anyone can break a fixed blade knife, folder, prybar, etc., if you put enough pressure on it. If all companies were afraid that someone was going to break their folder, there would be no folders. There are several companies like Strider and others that will warranty them if not intentionally abused. I really doubt that the thought of someone breaking one of Jerry's folders is the reason he has not made a folder for sale to the public under the Busse name (now we know there was the Rat Trap and the few Prototypes). I would guess it has more to due with getting all the patents needed, new machinery and tooling for making folders, training to make folders, a design or two that he feels will be good, etc. The folder could also come out under a different name (like what was done with the Swamp Rat and Scrap Yard) and have whatever warranty it wanted, like, excluding intentional abuse. You won't ever hear me say:
"I think Busse should just stick to what they do best and that is just make fixed blade knives."
Because you never know, they might just end up making the best FOLDER ever!!!


.
:eek:
 
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