Is the Survival Hierarchy a Common Understanding?

bruce said:
If he wants to see what the Army thinks, he should ask those at the U.S. Army Research Institute for Environmental Medicine at Natick, MA. I've been there.

Nemo, what is the number of days you've gone with 0 kcal.? Not 1000 kcal, not 600, but zero! I've gone three weeks. I know what it does to your ability to maneuver and make decisions and recover.
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Don't relent. Whatever. Never heard of whomever in Natick, MA.

I haven't heard of that institute in Mass but have heard of JFKSWC. Maybe you should call them up and tell THEM to change their curriculum. Or to have their people to call your people.

Personally, I've never gone more than 6 or 7 days. What does that prove? Probably not zero cals either. Even gum has cals but pretty close. Ten days once with almost nothing. Greatly reduced rats-- when we knew were wouldn't be getting resupply-- many weeks at a time.

The OP did not mention DM, he said he was "cold blooded". Yes, diabetes changes the game, but so does not having insulin for those people, at least the IDDM types.

As for Dr Ron Hood, no, I don't know him. However, his rule of threes is available from many sources.

"A person can live for:
Three minutes without air.
Three hours without shelter.
Three days without water.
Three weeks without food.
Three months without love.

I think he's spit-balling on that last one. http://www.survival.com/bookch1a.htm I guess he's wrong too. Maybe he's never heard of the institute of whatever in Mass.

My apologies to the rest of the forum for the tone being a bit testy. I'll try to take the advise of Rodney King, the great peacemaker and armed robber. :)
 
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Maybe some folks Priorities are different than others. Mindset is on the top, running around crying "the sky is falling" is just wasting energy.

I have high BP and take a bottle of pills with me, if I ran out I think I would keep on living, I would not lay down and play dead. here is an idea.

1. Stop the bleeding, if any

2, evaluate the situation, should I stay or should I go. Do people know where I am to look for me, or is it just a hike to somewhere to catch a ride / call help, make it home or some community place like the old country store, if able.

3. scrounge what I can besides what I got in my pockets I do what I can to keep myself alive.

maybe over simple, but keeping it simple is pretty god.

Pat
 
Talfuchre said:
king_rodney_celebrity_rehab.jpg


Why can't we all just get along?


Seriously,

Debate topics - just don't get loud with each other.

I love this forum because it is void of shouting matches.

TF
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Nobody is loud, no caps, but I won't apologize for raising a safety issue. One does not whisper "fire" in a crowded theater.

The problem with statements about how long one can go without food or water is that they are taken way out of context by those who listen to a few well meaning but clueless "experts". Nomoaz stated, "food isn't necessary for three to six weeks". His statement is potentially lethal and would probably put him on the wrong side of a lawsuit if someone actually listened to him and acted on his advice.

The fact is that a human may be able to go six to eight weeks without food before "DEATH"! But before death, one encounters a lack of ability to make rational decisions, the inability for the individual to turn his situation around by himself, without help, and the point at which it is too late (food administered at this point will not stop death). A good, well documented case of death by fasting is of ten Northern Irish men in HM Prison Maze in 1981. Death occured in as short a time as 46 days for Martin Hurson while Kieran Doherty went 73 days. Nemoaz's "6 weeks" is awfully close to 46 days! I'm sure food was "necessary" for these men long before they died.

There is no "debate" about this with nemoaz. Debate implies a discussion between two individuals who are at least familiar with the merits of the argument. This is not the case here. I can see by the statements he made that he has no credentials in this area and his advice should not be relied upon.

Is food equal to water. Yes, to some. No, to others. Generally one can go longer without food than water but that is again just a generalization.

gadgetgeek, Rotte, mathil and gnius have provided some valuable input here.
 
I think back on my limited military training, after a physical assessment, signalling and navigation rank right up there with water. As you do not WANT to stay in an un-found state or unknown location, immediately getting bearings and setting up location identification is a critical task.
So, fire is nightime critical regardless of weather/temperature IMO.
Daytime, mirror always handy. Signs for aerial observation need to be built in clearings ASAP.


EDIT to add......I'm not taking into account there could be hostiles after you. True survival means being found by anyone looking (most often from the air) or getting to civilization on your own.

Discomfort is a strong motivator.
 
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Well, on the plus side, even if it's only ten days, say, at least you have more time to think about whether you're going to starve or not.

I am sure that nobody here is taking the position that under no circumstances, however unusual or bizarre, can you die from medical causes relating to a lack of food quicker than you can die from a lack of water. I am sure there are ways to dream up a situation in which a person has a smoking fast metabolism, 1% body fat, is well hydrated but goes mad with hunger and plunges accidentally into a canyon to their death.

However I think it's agreed by everyone that in general, you have a lot more time to starve than to parch. I am not a doctor but I bet if the Irish guys had gone on a water strike they would not have made it to 4.6 days, let alone 46 days.
 
I've never said that other people have the same requirements as I do. I'm not diabetic, but I have the metabolism of an adolescent squirrel. the longest I've ever gone on 0cal was 30 hours. in a nice warm house, lots of water, granted I didn't sleep much, but nearing the end my mental capacity was reduced, and I was COLD.
transition that into outdoor, working, burning calories to accomplish work and keep warm, and I won't last long on 0cal. It may need to be stated that my typical worst case scenario planning is for a rapid cooling and snow. I have had at least one work day canceled in every month of the year, over the last four years. so a mountain trip in july might find -10c and an inch of wet snow in under four hours. since I don't carry a parka during summer I need other things to keep me going. I hope with more context you will see why I plan like I do. my bad for not stating that it is Hypothermia that is my concern not starvation.

I agree that water is more important in that three day window, and conditions do effect it, but I think to say three weeks without food as a general rule is a little unsafe. I'd succumb to hypothermia before dehydration in most of the "survival" situations that I envision. And if it is warm enough then I'll still be glad I brought a little food with me, because I doubt that I'd get to three weeks in no food under ideal conditions

I hope I've cleared things up from my side.
as a point of note, AFAIK those types of long term hunger strikes are usually accompanied with a minimum of extra activity by those undergoing them. if they had been at a work camp, I doubt they would have lasted that long.
 
G-Geek.....

Everybody is different but I believe you may be alot more resilient than you think when confronted with a situation like this. I have gone 5 full days without food and another 3 with foraged, wild edibles. The first 3 days is hell and you think you are going to wither away to nothing.... then your body realizes it's not getting any food and changes tactics. (hope that wasn't too technical for ya... lol.) Anyway, even though I have done this, I still start flippin out when I haven't eaten in a 4-5 hours! I can't imagine what someone with diabetes would go through... but the human body can do amazing things under stress.

Rick


To get back on topic a bit more.... I had an odd incident happen to me a few weeks ago.... I was driving to my folk's place and was about 20mins into a 45min car ride when my car just stopped running. (Turns out it was the battery... who knew they don't last 9+yrs?) When I got out to walk to a town (no more than a 20min walk) I began to go through scenarios in my head.... the I realized that I didn't have any immediate means of fire on me. Sure I had a multitool and could most likely get a firedrill going if I had to but the ferro rod that is usually on my keychain was on my shop bench. (after using it to shoot that little youtube vid). So there I was kicking myself for being so careless when I saw a metal piece sticking out of the snow.... A BIC LIGHTER STILL HALF FULL(I'm an optimist) WITH FLUID!! After a little coaxing the bic was lighting without a problem....... see..... it'll all work itself out in the end.... random luck is a wonderful survival tool... lol.

Rick
 
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nemoaz said:
A person can live for:
Three hours without shelter.
Three days without water.
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Three hours without shelter my balls. Have you never been outside? A person can live indefinitely without a home. Just go to your nearest municipality and look around. Water is key!!!
0) Rescue
1) Water
2) Fire
3) Shelter
4) Food

-DT
 
nemoaz said:
My apologies to the rest of the forum for the tone being a bit testy. I'll try to take the advise of Rodney King, the great peacemaker and armed robber. :)
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Don't listen to that guy. You'll end up with a brick upside your head. :mad::cool::eek::D
 
dttomcat said:
Three hours without shelter my balls.
-DT
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DT.... I think Nemo was refering to "3hrs in hostile elements without shelter".... he is quoting the "Rule Of 3's" so commonly used in survival training and for the average survivor, he is right.

3 mins without air
3 hrs without shelter
3 days without water
3 weeks without food

This mantra is used worldwide as a general guideline and anyone who says it isn't is fooling themselves. However, there are many factors that affect this as I'm sure Nemo is aware.

Right now it is -23 in my area.... so you had better be seeking out shelter long before that cup of H2O.

Rick
 
dttomcat said:
Three hours without shelter my balls. Have you never been outside? A person can live indefinitely without a home. Just go to your nearest municipality and look around. Water is key!!!
0) Rescue
1) Water
2) Fire
3) Shelter
4) Food

-DT
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If you're wet and shivering then fire may come before water.
 
Magnussen said:
DT.... I think Nemo was refering to "3hrs in hostile elements without shelter".... he is quoting the "Rule Of 3's" so commonly used in survival training and for the average survivor, he is right.

3 mins without air
3 hrs without shelter
3 days without water
3 weeks without food

This mantra is used worldwide as a general guideline and anyone who says it isn't is fooling themselves. However, there are many factors that affect this as I'm sure Nemo is aware.

Rick
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Three hours without shelter? Is this a rule of thumb? Even in Canada this time of year, I mean, come on. If this is the commonly accepted "mantra" then the "mantra" needs to be changed. If you can't live for more than three hours of exposure in almost any situation then you have health issues. Nudists excepted you should be OK without shelter for days on end. Safe water is paramount. And rescue should be your goal.
 
Where I'm standing right now..... my "order of operations" would be

Fire
Shelter
Water

Its hard to build a shelter with cold hands and feet and you won't survive the night without a way to contain that heat... water comes last on that short list.
 
DT........ I am not arguing with you......... You are arguing against "conventional wisdom" that has be accumulated and accepted, Worldwide, for centuries...


I believe you are thinking of exceptions to the rule.... and there always are....

Stand outside in -23 without the proper clothing and tell me you are going to go looking for a water source.... You will be a well hydrated frozen ball by nightfall... guarateed.
 
Magnussen said:
Where I'm standing right now..... my "order of operations" would be

Fire
Shelter
Water

Its hard to build a shelter with cold hands and feet and you won't survive the night without a way to contain that heat... water comes last on that short list.
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Appreciated. I respect your opinion, I just can't imagine a situation where someone can't live outside for more than three hours, save a severe storm.
 
Magnussen said:
DT........ I am not arguing with you......... You are arguing against "conventional wisdom" that has be accumulated and accepted, Worldwide, for centuries...


I believe you are thinking of exceptions to the rule.... and there always are....

Stand outside in -23 without the proper clothing and tell me you are going to go looking for a water source.... You will be a well hydrated frozen ball by nightfall... guarateed.
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Granted I'm from the mid-Atlantic region. But I just came from 11,500 ft in CO where it was snowing at about a half an inch per hour. Even there I think staying hydrated and staying warm would trump building a house. Just my $0.02. Your clothes themselves are a shelter. If you find yourself in the Canadian Rockies in a swimsuit in the middle of winter then you have other issues.
 
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