Is the Survival Hierarchy a Common Understanding?

dttomcat said:
Three hours without shelter? Is this a rule of thumb? Even in Canada this time of year, I mean, come on. If this is the commonly accepted "mantra" then the "mantra" needs to be changed. If you can't live for more than three hours of exposure in almost any situation then you have health issues. Nudists excepted you should be OK without shelter for days on end. Safe water is paramount. And rescue should be your goal.
Click to expand...
Yeah, of course it's a rule of thumb.
 
Having taken a few survival courses in a couple of countries ( namely Japan, Korea, Phillipines, Thailand and that strangest of all countries California) I can tell you every course I took quoted the rule of threes. This rule is worst case scenario and minimal requirements to meet the need.

In Thailand the the need for shelter was met with a couple of large leaves layed over a stick frame, with another frame under it to sit on. In real jungle you need shelter from the ground as much as the weather due to all the things who's bite can kill.

In response to the idea of living indefinately without a home, this is true but, even the homeless have shelter of some kind. I'm trying to jump into the measuring contest here I'm just saying the rule of threes is valid but should be taken in the spirit in which it is presented.

Personally, I place fire at the top of my list just because having a fire (even when it's not needed) helps me feel better about the situation. Plus if I'm gathering materials ( they are usually the same for fire and shelter building) the fire is faster to get built.

David
 
Magnussen said:
DT........ I am not arguing with you......... You are arguing against "conventional wisdom" that has be accumulated and accepted, Worldwide, for centuries...


I believe you are thinking of exceptions to the rule.... and there always are....

Stand outside in -23 without the proper clothing and tell me you are going to go looking for a water source.... You will be a well hydrated frozen ball by nightfall... guarateed.
Click to expand...

Rotf lol. :D

Rick - I'm not arguing either, I just think warmth and water should come first in 98% of situations. They would be my priorities. Good discussion. :thumbup:
 
Echo4v said:
I'm [NOT] trying to jump into the measuring contest here I'm just saying the rule of threes is valid but should be taken in the spirit in which it is presented.

Personally, I place fire at the top of my list just because having a fire (even when it's not needed) helps me feel better about the situation. Plus if I'm gathering materials ( they are usually the same for fire and shelter building) the fire is faster to get built.

David
Click to expand...

Rick and I aren't "measuring". If we were, I would win. :D I bow to him and I would probably vote him leader if he were in my group in a survival situation, I just can't comprehend the commonly accepted three hour shelter rule. How much warmer would a lean to be without a fire? IMHO shelter should be further down the list.
 
Magnussen said:
I've been taught not to think of any set hierarchy... instead, to be aware of myself, those around me, my environment and how they all relate to each other. Too many times have I read/heard about folks who get fixated on this "sacred hierarchy of needs", only to turn a deaf ear to what their situation, body, and environment are telling them.
Click to expand...

:thumbup:
 
Last edited:
Dttomcat--first let me say thanks for the edit-I needed that.

Secondly, the way it was presented to me ( which I guess I should have explained) is that shelter wasn't for warmth, it was for protection. The ideal of shelter in the rule of threes is to keep the sun from dehydrating you, the rain from soaking you ( very important in some countries where acid rain exists to the point of being harmful to humans) and snow from piling up on you or your gear. You'd be surprised how fast you can lose your whole pack because you put it down to gather firewood on the other side of that crevasse.

Also, it was presented as you need to be thinking of how you'll shelter yourself within 3 hours ( in most of the classes). As far as the widespreadedness ( is that word?) of this rule, I'll add that only two of my survival classes were taught by the U.S. the rest were taught by other nations' military instructors.

David
 
Echo4v said:
Dttomcat--first let me say thanks for the edit-I needed that.

Secondly, the way it was presented to me ( which I guess I should have explained) is that shelter wasn't for warmth, it was for protection. The ideal of shelter in the rule of threes is to keep the sun from dehydrating you, the rain from soaking you ( very important in some countries where acid rain exists to the point of being harmful to humans) and snow from piling up on you or your gear. You'd be surprised how fast you can lose your whole pack because you put it down to gather firewood on the other side of that crevasse.

Also, it was presented as you need to be thinking of how you'll shelter yourself within 3 hours ( in most of the classes). As far as the widespreadedness ( is that word?) of this rule, I'll add that only two of my survival classes were taught by the U.S. the rest were taught by other nations' military instructors.

David
Click to expand...

I just started Les Stroud's book where he states that acid rain anywhere is not a big concern in a survival situation. And, I can't think of anywhere in the US, with the exception of maybe Alaska in winter, where shelter would be absolutely necessary within three hours. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong. I just want to understand. Extremes are one thing, but within certain latitudes, I would think that water and fire should come first. Outside of the sensational news stories where people die from exposure to commonly experienced temps, I do not see how shelter should be at the top.
 
I'd agree that shelter needs to be in the plan within three hours. That might be building a shelter, or finding a place to hunker down with the heatsheet. IMHO surviving that first night is going to be more important than finding water, at least until the next AM. Like has been stated, the conditions will dictate what the priorities are.
Last night was -23c with light wind and 60%humidity. if it had been snowing, shelter would be critical to keep from getting slowly soaked.
if it was july in the badlands, then priorities shift a little, and water becomes much more critical, and all activities shift to night time, when moving to keep warm is beneficial.
I also operate a lot better a little dehydrated than I do a little hypothermic. but hypothermia is always my biggest short term concern no matter the time of year. I've only been severely hypothermic once, and wow were the hallucinations odd. logic leaves for a warmer climate, and even if you know how/ what to do, your reasoning gets very strange.
 
dttomcat said:
Rick and I aren't "measuring". If we were, I would win. :D
Click to expand...

Hey.... I resemble that remark!:p

dttomcat said:
I just can't comprehend the commonly accepted three hour shelter rule. How much warmer would a lean to be without a fire? IMHO shelter should be further down the list.
Click to expand...


Please understand that proper clothing is considered "shelter". I'm not talking about walking out of your house with a goose down parka and -40F Sorrels on your feet, DT.... I'm talking about having to do a 2hr hike into town wearing running shoes and a fleece pullover because your car broke down in -23C weather.
 
In the desert, shelter and water. In the Arctic, shelter and fire. In 90% of the US 365 & 1/4, water and fire in my book. This discussion has done well to answer the OP's question. Hierarchy, no. Prioritize! -DT
 
Magnussen said:
Stand outside in -23 without the proper clothing and tell me you are going to go looking for a water source....
Click to expand...
No problem. When I go outside in zero or below temperatures, I immediately have to urinate. Bare Grylli Vanilli said I should drink that, just do it quickly.
 
DT.... 90% of the US??????? That is undeniably wrong....

I live in Southern Ontario and am more south than many parts of the US.... you would be dead of hypothermia far before you would ever die of dehydration. If you were outside with jeans, sneakers, a sweater and a fleece!.... hell I'll even throw in a cap and gloves......

Currently... in F
Northern US is -10 to -30.....
Midwest is 0 to 20....

That accounts for about 66% of the US.........


IMHO I think the 0 to 20F weather is more dangerous that the -30F....... You can atleast shed snow and remain relatively dry in -30F!!


Rick
 
Well I didn't really want to get into it but here we go :D
Each person is different with different needs. Some people can take the heat or cold better & some people can go longer without food or water than others. So everyones ideas will slighty differ on what they think should be #1.
Also it will depend on the area you are in & the time of year. As for myself & it being 23deg F & light snow with a snow & Ice storm comming in tonight it would be -
#1 Shelter
#2 Fire
#3 Water
#4 Food
If it were summer time here then things would change -
#1 fire
#2 water
#3 shelter
#4 food

I think Fire should be # 1 in any case, You will need fire to boil water to make it safe to drink , you need fire to heat yourself & your shelter, you need fire to prepare your food. You need fire for light in the dark.
Again this is just me & the way I would take care of myself ;)
 
It's always about you, isn't it!!? You take self-preservation so personal, CD!



:p
Rick
 
I think for summer (hot sun, 80-110F) my priorities would be:

1. Water
2. More water
3. Shelter from sun
4. Fire to purify water
5. Some water
6. Nav/signalling
7. Salt -- I'd even eat some food to get some salt.

Remember that eating/digesting uses water and creates heat. Anyone who's been in Iraq in the summer care to comment on the effects of prolonged heat on appetite?
 
IMO, you need to be prepared for all of the needs, and prioritize on the spot.

As for shelter, no one is talking about building a house.
If my car breaks down and it's -20 out and I put on the ECW coat I have in my trunk, a wool hat and some mittens, or if it's in the desert and I roll down the sleeves of my white shirt, put on a big straw hat and some sunglasses -- either way, I have addressed shelter first. I think people automatically address shelter first -- usually by adjusting clothing, but also in selecting that sheltered place out of the direct wind for your fire, etc -- but it's so automatic they don't think about it as a step.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top