Is there an unreasonable markup on Damscus vs. plain.

Walking Man

Walking Man

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With all due respect to the great makers that are out there (of course this doesn't apply to all of them).
Is it just me or does it seem like a damascus knife will bring a unreasonably high mark up over a regular blade? I understand damascus is expensive, but most of the time, it's HARDLY as expensive as the makers would have you think. I'm not talking about hand forged damascus, most damascus that was purchased from someone like Devin Thomas or other, and then made with a stock removal technique.
http://www.devinthomas.com/pages/prices.html
I believe this is true, but I also believe it is the buyers that are at fault for buying into the extra cost.
 
But it does not matter if you buy the damascus or make your own, monetarily, because of the hours it takes to make.

In fact, it is probably LESS expensive to buy it from Devin. Now a good blade sized piece of Devin damascus will run about $100.00 or so, last time I checked. Then you have to hand rub or polish it about as good as a regular steel blade, and then etch it, and rub it, and etch it, and so on.

Figure a blade in damascus will add cost of $$ in materials, but will add AT LEAST 4-8 hours MORE work to the knife. I reckon an addition of $150.00-$300 is fair depending on the knife, and maker(I was just thinking folders here, significantly more for big fixed blades).

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Thanks for info.
I really didn't consider all of the factors....
That and I just got a couple of REALLY good deals on damascus knives.....
So, maybe I'm a little biased now. :)
 
Walking Man said:
Thanks for info.
I really didn't consider all of the factors....
That and I just got a couple of REALLY good deals on damascus knives.....
So, maybe I'm a little biased now. :)
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WM,

I too got a really good deal on one recently, but it was in a lot buy and they were all cheaper than if individually purchased. I figure it will easily douible what I paid or more, from having watched them sell on fleabay over the last year or so.

My first one. A Buck 110.
 
With damascus, you're paying for the labor involved in making the stuff. If you've ever watched anybody make damascus, you realize then and there, why it costs so much. It's a LOT of hot, hard, dangerous work. Plus, if the slightest little thing goes wrong, like a teeny speck of dirt gets into the weld, then the billet is pretty much scrapped. Or, at least it should be.

As to the finished product, a plain carbon steel blade is actually harder to do properly. With a damascus blade, you finish the blade to a certain level and then you etch. Things can be hidden by the etch, but not with the hand rubbed satin finish. Every little scratch is there for the world to see.
 
There must be something to what Danbo says. :D

It is clear that the majority of the cost of a handmade knife is the maker's time.

I have had several mastersmiths and others, (who make their own damascus)
tell me that the price difference between, say, a nice damascus blade and a hand-rubbed blade (especially w/hamon) is not that great.

Maybe a couple of those makers who frequenct the forums could jump in and elaborate.
 
Danbo speaks loudly here. With the cost of the equipment, and labor, and the learning curve to make GOOD damascus, especially if forged by the maker, I am more surprised that there isn't a larger disparity in pricing.

That said, the best carbon steel blade when finished properly is, for me, more of a joy to behold than lots of damascus patterns.

It's a subjective call for the desire, but an objective distinction on the cost/benefit of pattern-welded steel over plain.

Coop
 
I think Steven and Dan got it pegged and keep in mind the AT LEAST part of the time added. You don't have to go too far up on the "fancy pattern" or into the mosaic arena until you are getting into significant time differences.

For me damascus knives are an odd appeal. When the design, materials and the blade pattern work together and flow with clean lines at every angle they can knock my socks off, but so does 52100, W2, etc, etc, etc.

So in my mind some times a knife screams for a damascus blade and other times damascus can be too much taking away from some excellent aspects that are overshadowed by a beautifully patterned blade. To me there needs to be a flow both geometrically and to the eye when damascus is used in a collectable rather than user piece. Maybe the bolster and handle are tied into the pattern in some way (even in a subtle way by shape, carving, engraving, curves, or filework that complements the pattern of the blade) or maybe things gradually flow as far as embelishment or materials or elements of a theme. Then there are the times when a clean design screams for a carbon blade just to keep things uniform from a visual point of view.

It is harder for me to get excited about boldly patterned blades when the rest of the knife hits my eye as something too distinct from the blade.
 
That said, the best carbon steel blade when finished properly is, for me, more of a joy to behold than lots of damascus patterns
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++1

A fine, flat hand rubbed finish is a lot tougher to master. One reason there is so much Damascus shown at shows, IMO.
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
++1

A fine, flat hand rubbed finish is a lot tougher to master. One reason there is so much Damascus shown at shows, IMO.
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There is damascus, and then, there is DAMASCUS, ie Rados Turkish Twist, Devin's Raindrop and Ladder patterns, the mosaics of the masters.

These are blades that shimmer. No, I don't think that you can say it is tougher to hand satin finish a blade than it is to properly forge a damascus one, and finish that. They are both a biatch.

Depends upon which maker you are talking to about which knife at which stage it is in.

Truly great damascus steel will always be a desireable knife commodity, but it's just like black lip pearl right now, you don't see a lot of truly great stuff. I have a blade from Phillip Baldwin, 1 from Darryl Meier, one from J.D. Smith, and one from Nick Wheeler, and each one is art from the metal to the finishing, no flaws are hidden, they are just REALLY hard to see.:D

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
No, I don't think that you can say it is tougher to hand satin finish a blade than it is to properly forge a damascus one, and finish that. They are both a biatch.
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No one said it was easy, but I think a lot of bladesmiths would ardently disagree.

I agree with your point that not all Damascus is created equal. Thats for darned sure. I have owned Rados, JD Smith, JM Smith, Zowada, Kilby and some real mind blowing damascus. As you said, there is little Damascus of that quality being displayed at shows. I was referring to the garden variety Damascus one tends to see being displayed by the average bladesmith which is usually fairly mediocre and underwhelming.

As far as the satin finish, very few damascus pieces (none actually) ever recieve the level of surface finish that a fogg temperline bowie does for example or even a Russ Andrews 1500 grit hunter.

Mosaic doesn't move me either. Too manipulated for my tastes.
 
Some makers add very little to the price of their knives for pattern welded steel. Some add a great deal. This definitely does not have anything to do with the quality of the steel. One Mastersmith gave me a price of $1100.00 for a 10" bowie in W2 and $1300.00 in jellyroll pattern welded steel. Another Mastersmith quoted me $1500.00 for a 10" bowie and $2800.00 in pattern welded. Both makers' steel is excellent. Any ideas as to why there is such a discrepancy?
 
I spend much more time heat treating and finishing a carbon bowie blade with hamon than I do a pattern welded blade almost to the point of canceling out the time it takes to make the damascus billet or so it seems to me. So I charge about the same but a little more for a pattern welded bowie due to the amount of material used. Two blades below, which do ya'll like best?
 
I just don't understand it, don't get the focus, or reasons behind why damascus is so important, why it has come the the forefront and defines much of what is valued in the arena of custom knives today. (Other than it draws people to the cover of magazines) Why is it important, to collectors, is it just about the pure art of it? What does it add to any knife, other than just painting the blade a different color?
DAvid
 
For me, and I'm sure I'm not alone on this one, the fascination with damascus lies in the virtual limitless patterns available. Like fingerprints; no two damascus blades will be identical.
 
2knife said:
I just don't understand it, don't get the focus, or reasons behind why damascus is so important, why it has come the the forefront and defines much of what is valued in the arena of custom knives today. (Other than it draws people to the cover of magazines) Why is it important, to collectors, is it just about the pure art of it? What does it add to any knife, other than just painting the blade a different color?
DAvid
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If you have not been able to understand it yet after your years of knife involvement, you never will.

It is like trying to explain to a blind person what a sunset looks like or explain to a deaf person what good music sounds like.

You are neither blind nor deaf, but you cannot see something that is attached in equal parts to emotion, craft and artistry. Trying to explain it to you is pointless.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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