Is this ganzo based on an existing design?

[mcrow]

his ganzo didn't do so well. I wouldn't expect any folder to do all that great anyways. I skipped to the ganzo part didnt watch the earlier stuff.

I actually think the Ganzo lock is pretty solid. It's not as good as Benchmade, obviously but for the price it really locks up good and strong. I bet you won't find many $25 knifes that locks much stronger than the Ganzo, maybe some of the old-school lock backs. Like others have said, folders are not meant to be hard use so unless it's an emergency or the person is dumb the Ganzo lock is plenty strong.

 

[Chefget]

So I'm tutoring a young student in reading. She recently closed a book after just a few pages, proclaiming the story over. She additionally claimed, without argument, that everything in that book is stupid and that anyone who likes that book is stupid. Also, I'm totally the worst teacher ever and I was ruining her life by making her read. For anyone here who wouldn't by swayed by such a potent intellectual authority, I'll take the time to respond to our esteemed colleague, NorthernSouthpaw.

First, duplicating an idea or concept without proper permission or attribution is not the same as stealing a tangible item. I'm not saying that it is good to do such a thing but we should be real about it. Second, not only does such an act not necessarily damage the hobby as a whole, there are cases in which the opposite will be true. There are plenty of people who get introduced into this hobby via their experiences with a cheap Ganzo, whether it be a copycat design, a design mash-up like a Rat with an Axis lock, or an original design like the knife in question here.

A common refrain is that all those cheap copies of some Design X, however loosely copied or inspired, are necessarily blocking sales of the much more expensive original Design X. That is bad logic. For that to be true of any given consumer, that particular consumer would both need to have already been planning to buy the expensive original Design X and then to have subsequently changed their mind in favor of buying the cheap copy of Design X. While counterfactuals cannot actually be known, this probably represents a very small portion of the potential customer base for the original Design X.

In reality, the reverse can also happen. There absolutely exists consumers who buy the cheap copy of Design X and doing so later causes them to buy the original Design X. For instance, my own experiences with a couple of Spyderco-like Ganzo knives led me to buying a couple of actual Spyderco knives. Those are Spyderco sales that would not have occurred if not for Ganzo. Further, those experiences would in turn lead me to buying even more Spyderco knives. So if not for Ganzo, I wouldn't have purchased six real Spyderco knives from authorized dealers and wouldn't be eagerly awaiting my seventh.

Please, please, no common sense or logic.

When the Chinese discussion arises etiquette dictates we stick with self serving selective racism and channeling 'holier than thou' cries until those heathen knives are driven from our God-fearing shores.

Get with the program, would ya?

 

[Zulus]

Every and any ch ina productions are made on stolen/"borrowed" intelectual property !!!
Period

 

[MolokaiRider]

Help me understand price ceiling...

Sal I have seen you repeat this line of thinking over and over through the years and you are wrong. Currency exchange rate of YMB to USD is about 6to 1 but Japanese Yen to Usd is 110 to 1, how do you explain that. Maybe the Chinese made knives are cheaper because labor and machinery cost are...

www.bladeforums.com

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Please, please, no common sense or logic.

When the Chinese discussion arises etiquette dictates we stick with self serving selective racism and channeling 'holier than thou' cries until those heathen knives are driven from our God-fearing shores.

Get with the program, would ya?

Or you could actually pay any attention to how much love companies like Kizer, WE/CIVIVI and Reate get on this forum and realize that, unlike you, many, many, many members of this forum take issue with specific ethical breaches and don't associate them all with country of origin. But that wouldn't serve to justify supporting companies that steal designs and mechanisms from other, more reputable manufacturers, so you'll conveniently ignore that.

 

[stabman]

Just say no to Ganzo.
Plenty of reputable companies have knives produced in China...that is not the issue.

The issue is that Ganzo sucks.
They dug themselves a deep hole, and it's gonna be years before they can climb out and fill it in.

 

[DocJD]

I don't think Ganzo Firebird's market is found primarily with knife enthusiasts .

All the moral blustering aside , if you want to impress others with your top end knife , it wouldn't be a Ganzo in any case .

For cheap beaters , I think they work fine . Most hobbyists just aren't seeking that level of product .

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

I don't think Ganzo Firebird's market is found primarily with knife enthusiasts .

All the moral blustering aside , if you want to impress others with your top end knife , it wouldn't be a Ganzo in any case .

For cheap beaters , I think they work fine . Most hobbyists just aren't seeking that level of product .

Then buy a Kershaw...
or a CIVIVI
or a Kizer
or a Boker
or a CJRB.... etc


Also, This is not about buying Chinese products or any political issue. The company's country of origin is irrelevant.
Ganzo are thieves.

 

[c7m2p3]

Then buy a Kershaw...
or a CIVIVI
or a Kizer
or a Boker
or a CJRB.... etc


Also, This is not about buying Chinese products or any political issue. The company's country of origin is irrelevant.
Ganzo are thieves.

Ya as I said much earlier, I can sympathize with those just getting into this knife thing wanting to go after value. But right now...the options to stay in that value category are so plentiful you don't need to mess with the likes of a company that has had a shady past.

Plus, you are going to get far better performance out of the kind of grinds companies like Civivi and CJRB are producing right now. The same D2 is going to cut and last a lot longer because of the edge geometry available on the common knife that Civivi is making right now. A $42 Praxis is leagues better than anything Ganzo is making and the difference is often a mere $10. Skip a six pack this week and get a better knife that is going to last you two decades.

 

[Chronovore]

Ya as I said much earlier, I can sympathize with those just getting into this knife thing wanting to go after value. But right now...the options to stay in that value category are so plentiful you don't need to mess with the likes of a company that has had a shady past.

Plus, you are going to get far better performance out of the kind of grinds companies like Civivi and CJRB are producing right now. The same D2 is going to cut and last a lot longer because of the edge geometry available on the common knife that Civivi is making right now. A $42 Praxis is leagues better than anything Ganzo is making and the difference is often a mere $10. Skip a six pack this week and get a better knife that is going to last you two decades.

I understand people not wanting to buy a Ganzo because of their past. Even if they stopped producing copycat knives, design mash-ups, etc.; there are some who might never forgive them. Luckily, there are lots of other quality manufacturers in China and we are blessed with choices. Aside from the few companies we know, one challenge is that it's hard to know which brands are having OEM work done by Ganzo.

As far as quality, I've now had lots and lots of budget knives from different Chinese companies including Ganzo, WE, Bestech, Kizer, Artisan, QSP, Sanrenmu, Petrified Fish, TwoSun, Harnds, and more. I've used, carried, taken apart and thoroughly inspected all of them that can be. Based on my samples, I'd say that QC and overall quality from Ganzo isn't as bad as some people like to think. It's possible that this is something that has improved in recent years or that I've just had peculiar luck. My experiences suggest that Ganzo's QC and overall quality is at least as good or better than QSP and Artisan.

The statement that you'll get a much better knife from Civivi (or WE's new bottom-tier, Sencut) is largely true. WE is easily at the top of the class based on my experiences. They've also perfected the heat treatment for 9Cr18Mov such that it'll get edge retention closer to mass-production knives in S35VN. If someone wants an competitively priced knife in Chinese D2, Petrified Fish gets one of the better heat treatments and is a good alternative to Ganzo's Firebird line.

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

What you do with your money is your business, but if you are on this forum you should damn well know what Ganzo is about, and how that type of behavior is viewed.
These threads always boil down to one side attempting to sell their justification on the purchase of stolen property, and the other side not buying it and calling out their BS.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Ya as I said much earlier, I can sympathize with those just getting into this knife thing wanting to go after value. But right now...the options to stay in that value category are so plentiful you don't need to mess with the likes of a company that has had a shady past.

Plus, you are going to get far better performance out of the kind of grinds companies like Civivi and CJRB are producing right now. The same D2 is going to cut and last a lot longer because of the edge geometry available on the common knife that Civivi is making right now. A $42 Praxis is leagues better than anything Ganzo is making and the difference is often a mere $10. Skip a six pack this week and get a better knife that is going to last you two decades.

Yup. As of this moment in my knife collecting journey I buy almost exclusively American made automatics and CIVIVI knives. Largely because I think the build quality of CIVIVI is on par with, or better than, many knives I own (that are very well made, mind you) that cost a great deal more.

 

[Chronovore]

What you do with your money is your business, but if you are on this forum you should damn well know what Ganzo is about, and how that type of behavior is viewed.
These threads always boil down to one side attempting to sell their justification on the purchase of stolen property, and the other side not buying it and calling out their BS.

Remember that little girl I described? Repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't really contribute much. To save you time in the future, it is duly noted that "one side" can only ever speak "BS" and that any information presented and any argument, regardless of any truth or logic therein, only ever boils down to "justification for the purchase of stolen property". Now that you have graced us with your colossal intellect and moral superiority in perpetuity, you can retire with eternal thanks.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Remember that little girl I described? Repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't really contribute much. To save you time in the future, it is duly noted that "one side" can only ever speak "BS" and that any information presented and any argument, regardless of any truth or logic therein, only ever boils down to "justification for the purchase of stolen property". Now that you have graced us with your colossal intellect and moral superiority in perpetuity, you can retire with eternal thanks.

And yet the truth remains the same, no matter how many times it's repeated. Stop spewing the same garbage and people will stop repeating the same truths back to you.

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

Remember that little girl I described? Repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't really contribute much. To save you time in the future, it is duly noted that "one side" can only ever speak "BS" and that any information presented and any argument, regardless of any truth or logic therein, only ever boils down to "justification for the purchase of stolen property". Now that you have graced us with your colossal intellect and moral superiority in perpetuity, you can retire with eternal thanks.

It amazes me that you continuously try so hard to be eloquent and intellectually superior in your replies. Yet the actual content is pure drivel.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

It amazes me that you continuously try so hard to be eloquent and intellectually superior in your replies. Yet the actual content is pure drivel.

It also invariably involves counterfactual hypotheticals. We have Chronovore arguing that sales of Ganzo clones and counterfeits will hypothetically result in more Spyderco sales than if they didn't exist, meanwhile we have the one person in a real position to KNOW, Sal Glesser, pointing out that those clones and counterfeits hurt sales and that Spyderco spends tens of thousands of dollars fighting against clones and counterfeits. Which, in turn, means that consumers choosing to support Spyderco foot part of that bill, making the real deal more expensive for them.

In short, the man himself says they hurt his bottom line and some of that inevitably has to be passed on to customers, so they hurt anyone buying legitimate products as well.

 

[jbmonkey]

It also invariably involves counterfactual hypotheticals. We have Chronovore arguing that sales of Ganzo clones and counterfeits will hypothetically result in more Spyderco sales than if they didn't exist, meanwhile we have the one person in a real position to KNOW, Sal Glesser, pointing out that those clones and counterfeits hurt sales and that Spyderco spends tens of thousands of dollars fighting against clones and counterfeits. Which, in turn, means that consumers choosing to support Spyderco foot part of that bill, making the real deal more expensive for them.

In short, the man himself says they hurt his bottom line and some of that inevitably has to be passed on to customers, so they hurt anyone buying legitimate products as well.

thats it right there.^ there is no legitimate counter argument to this.

 

[NorthernSouthpaw]

It also invariably involves counterfactual hypotheticals. We have Chronovore arguing that sales of Ganzo clones and counterfeits will hypothetically result in more Spyderco sales than if they didn't exist, meanwhile we have the one person in a real position to KNOW, Sal Glesser, pointing out that those clones and counterfeits hurt sales and that Spyderco spends tens of thousands of dollars fighting against clones and counterfeits. Which, in turn, means that consumers choosing to support Spyderco foot part of that bill, making the real deal more expensive for them.

In short, the man himself says they hurt his bottom line and some of that inevitably has to be passed on to customers, so they hurt anyone buying legitimate products as well.

VERY well said.
You, I, and others have consistently pointed this highly significant fact out in threads like these. Unfortunately it often falls upon deaf ears.
Actually it's not deaf ears. It's more like this

 

[Chronovore]

It also invariably involves counterfactual hypotheticals. We have Chronovore arguing that sales of Ganzo clones and counterfeits will hypothetically result in more Spyderco sales than if they didn't exist, meanwhile we have the one person in a real position to KNOW, Sal Glesser, pointing out that those clones and counterfeits hurt sales and that Spyderco spends tens of thousands of dollars fighting against clones and counterfeits. Which, in turn, means that consumers choosing to support Spyderco foot part of that bill, making the real deal more expensive for them.

In short, the man himself says they hurt his bottom line and some of that inevitably has to be passed on to customers, so they hurt anyone buying legitimate products as well.

No. Your synopsis of my position is grossly negligent and you present further errors. Let me help you with your reading comprehension and logic. Based on what I actually said:

1. There certainly exists a mechanism by which the existence of an inexpensive design copy can prevent a sale of the original design. However, this mechanism is limited. It only involves consumers who (A) were already planning to buy the more expensive original and definitely would have except (B) they then saw the cheap copy and subsequently changed their mind, based on on that factor alone, in favor of buying the cheap copy instead of the more expensive original design.

2. There certainly exists a mechanism by which the existence of an inexpensive design copy can cause a sale of the original design. This is not hypothetical. It does happen. I offered a concrete example of it happening.

While 1 and 2 are not refutable, there is a reasonable question as to the frequency of these mechanisms occurring. This is where we run into trouble with counterfactual reasoning. It is not possible to differentiate the affected consumers in 1 from those who made their decisions based on an infinite number of other factors.

While Sal Glesser is an amazing human being and I sincerely appreciate all that he has done for this hobby, he is no more perfect than you or I. He is no more able to differentiate the affected customers in 1 from those who made their decisions based on an infinite number of other factors. Counterfactuals are a matter of logic and not personal reputation in a given community. While I can't speak for Sal, I think it is a safe bet that he would be upset to see unauthorized copies of designs or design elements that his company spent time, money, and effort to develop and bring to market. I am sympathetic to this and let's remember, I have already stated that I do not think it is right or good for Ganzo to be improperly copying designs or design elements.

As far as Sal's choice to devote resources towards fighting this practice, or the much more concrete and actually arguable damage caused by the different practice of counterfeiting, it is certainly within his prerogative to try. Remember folks, this isn't about supporting Ganzo. It's about being real with our analyses and not making absurd claims about the intent, morality, or effects of members of this forum who choose to own a Ganzo product.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

What you do with your money is your business, but if you are on this forum you should damn well know what Ganzo is about, and how that type of behavior is viewed.
These threads always boil down to one side attempting to sell their justification on the purchase of stolen property, and the other side not buying it and calling out their BS.

It's really sad fact that such threads end as this, I totally agree...

On the other hand I am first hand witness of some of the facts Chronovore mentioned in his posts because I also go to other non-English speaking forums.

Yes, lot's of knife enthusiasts outside US are trying blatant copies in order to decide if they like particular model or not. For the majority of those,
the name of the designer means nothing, they are not familiar with it's work and so on, the way people here take interest. There is a different mentality out there and not everyone is living by our standards here...
For lots of those guys trying knock offs, this particular original knife is "overpriced, over advertised and doesn't worth the money or materials, or design..."
What I observe is that some will buy the copy, use it, find out that the design is worth the price and look for the original, not being happy of the knock off performance, built or materials, of the copy, pick one.
They either shell out few bucks and go happy with the originals, and don't look at the copies anymore, or waste periodically money for copies down the road...
Simply put, once they got educated about the design, they understand the difference. And no offence or disrespect to my international friends, I understand that this way of thinking is perfectly normal for over there,
I'm not looking down to people using and buying copies, I don't like it, I'll state my opinion if asked, but won't try to change it, I'm too old for this and also in most cases it's pointless.

For good or bad, we are already past the point when a Chinese companies just copy knives the way Kevin John or Ganzo did it. Now they are legitimate companies, they are using confirmed steels and
collaborating with recognizable names in the Industry, so they can be associated with legitimate practice. And they are legitimate.
What they offer is great craftsmanship, that's the why they are able to bring the recognizable designers on board and this is not bad either.
As I mentioned before - it is a way of delivering great design and great craftsmanship to more people, for cheaper price. I'm all for it.

What I don't personally like is justifying and denying the stealing from companies as Ganzo, done in any way possible. I'm not saying that Chronovore is doing it, regardless how it looks like.
This is his point, I'm not here to judge or change it, the facts will do it if he's point isn't right and I'm not dealing with this simply because for the time I've being in this forum, I've seen so many threads like this that I'm sick of it, so...

All I want to say is - it is still a gray area, Chinese companies changed for sort of obvious good, the US market also changed with all those colabs. let's not be so harsh and "political",
the truth is somewhere there in the middle and I'd guess both sides of the argument won't like it much. Cheers !