Is this honorable?

Makermook,
First ,welcome to the Bladeforums.
As moderator, I will leave this up for today, and move it to "Around the Grinder" this evening. I understand why it was posted here, but this forum is for knife making and related discussions.

I am sorry that this experience has happened, but as you will discover in time, knifemakers come in a variety of types. Some are a bit strange ( and some are a lot strange). Just chalk this up to an unusual experience and go on with your life. Don't let this one chap paint your idea of what all bladesmiths are like. Go to a hammer-in the first chance you get and meet a bunch of smiths face to face. You will find that we are all a strange lot, but generally very amiable.
 
Honor is not a universal constant. What one culture calls honor another culture might call murder. That we have certain traits we lump under the banner of honor tells us more about what we value than it does about what is right or wrong in a universal sense.

Likewise, how we spend our time and energy is a reflection of what we value.

When it comes to belief systems it is important to understand that no matter how strongly you think yours is correct and all others are flawed, there are others on the planet that feel just as strongly about their alternate belief systems. Each will have some degree of empirical evidence to support their beliefs.

One thing I was taught long ago is the perspective is critical to understanding people. Each person sees the world through a unique set of eyes. Each forms a unique set of perceptions. For them the perceptions ARE reality. What they see of the world they KNOW is true because they saw it. What they hear in the world they KNOW is true because they heard it. The fact that what they see and hear is colored by the beliefs of those around them is much harder for them to see or hear, and it borders on fantasy for them. The fact that we see and hear different things doesn't make their perception any less true for them.

When you have that fundemental level of understanding it becomes impossible to see the world only through your own eyes. You begin to understand that two eyes is never enough to fully understand the world. One brain can never comprehend the totality of truth around us.
You need to accept that the beliefs of others are filled with truths you may not understand or accept, but they are truths just the same as the things you see and hear.

- Greg
 
Have you tried corresponding with him after the last e-mail? Explain that you don't care about the knife but are disturbed by the loss of your friendship.
 
zaph1 said:
Have you tried corresponding with him after the last e-mail? Explain that you don't care about the knife but are disturbed by the loss of your friendship.
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As a matter of fact, I wrote to him and said precisely that. I told him that I don't know anyone who is pagan, so I didn't realize that mentioning a Catholic saint would be a sore topic. I apologized for not understanding, but I said I'd respect his desire not to correspond any more, and that has been the last of it. I haven't heard anything from him and I haven't written to him. The last thing I said was that I still consider him a friend, but he didn't respond.
 
I would say don't mix religion with business,… but since no money changed hands it's hard to call it business.

Sometimes religion comes up in conversation with my private students, but I had kind of a bad experience with that recently, and should just try and stay off that topic from now on.

Greg made some good points.
 
Makermook said:
He wrote right back to me and said, "I'm sick of Christians. I never want to talk to you again. Bye-bye." And that was it. No explanation, no nothing. Just "I hate Christians, deal's off."
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At the risk of being flippant (and I certainly don't want to be) I can certainly imagine this guy feeling much the same way about christians as I do about muslims. I really don't like them as a general rule, although individual exceptions certainly exist.
I would not make a knife for the son of a muslim fighting somewhere.

Is this guy just nuts?
Or did he suddenly realize that he didn't want to *give away* an expensive knife?
Have I read something totally wrong?
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I don't believe he went all cheap on you all of a sudden, certainly the timing suggests otherwise.
He is nuts only in the sense that he lets his religion define his attitude towards people who don't believe what he believes.
As fas as he is concerned, he is sane AND honorable. He probably thinks YOU are not.

As for how to proceed, I agree with the majority. Let it go. His motives for the way he acted are founded on his bedrock in life, and they are not likely to change. Neither are yours. Make your son a knife yourself, and it will contain more heart and soul than it ever would if it was made by anyone else. :thumbup:
 
Hates Christans? Why would you want to be friends with a person who hates other people based on their religion? Doesn't matter if it's moslems, hindus, whatever, it's wrong. I'd let it go.

Dave
 
Just my 2 cents--let it go. Other than some time to send email over the months you have nothing invested in this. You originally contacted him for information, the knife was a "bonus" until it was taken away. There's nothing else to gain by persuing the matter further.
 
This may be a longshot but it has happened before and I personally know someeone who almost lost their job because of a misunderstanding.

You really have no idea who's on the other end of the shoestring typing away. My friend had a home-based business that was almost put under because of his 15yr old son. You see, his boy was highjacking his business email to register on several nefarious websites and eventually began emailing messages and links to his father's clients. Months went by, customers were dying off... he was really confused. It took him close to 4 months to realise what was happening and several more to gather the pieces...

... Does this maker have kids/spouse/significant others who may be anti-Christian, with access to his email account?... something to think about.

I would follow up a few times to test the waters... if he holds true to his attitude, then walk away. You are among MANY fine makers here... we will help you in anyway we can, brother. We all share at least one belief... "Blades are Beautiful"... nuff said.
 
First off I think you need to look at the situation and decide if the "online" friendship is worth recovery...

You say you learned a lot from this maker, and appreciate his work. I would send an email stating that you are upset about losing connection with him over something that you feel should not be a concern (For either party), since you stated that it is his personal business. That you never intended to impose your beliefs onto him (And Don't send him a bible, those are the actions that make people angry!), You have a common interest in Knives and forging. Tell him that this is where future conversations (If he allows them) will be focused.

I would also mention that you greatly appreciated his offer receive "Good Karma" by making your son a knife, but that you are not in the relationship for a free knife. I would even go as far as saying that you appreciate his generosity and time put into a knife originally created on your behalf and would be willing to purchase it in order to keep your "Karma" in good standing.

I mean no offense to anyone in this post, I hate posting in these types of threads because things always read differently than they sound in my head...Good luck!
 
philwar said:
At the risk of being flippant (and I certainly don't want to be) I can certainly imagine this guy feeling much the same way about christians as I do about muslims. I really don't like them as a general rule, although individual exceptions certainly exist.
I would not make a knife for the son of a muslim fighting somewhere.


I don't believe he went all cheap on you all of a sudden, certainly the timing suggests otherwise.
He is nuts only in the sense that he lets his religion define his attitude towards people who don't believe what he believes.
As fas as he is concerned, he is sane AND honorable. He probably thinks YOU are not.

As for how to proceed, I agree with the majority. Let it go. His motives for the way he acted are founded on his bedrock in life, and they are not likely to change. Neither are yours. Make your son a knife yourself, and it will contain more heart and soul than it ever would if it was made by anyone else. :thumbup:
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The one thing that makes me wonder if cheapness is the issue (and if religious differences might be a convenient excuse) is that I have no problem believing that he would sell a knife to someone outside his faith. He's British, for one thing, and I imagine not every single one of his clients are in his faith. He also made a point of talking about the knives he's made which are in the hands of SEALs, Delta Force members, the SAS, etc. and I don't think every single one of those guys are pagan/Wiccan/shamanistic.

But the overwhelming advice I've already gotten here sounds very sensible: let it go.

I believe I'll do that. Like I said, he *did* give me valuable advice on forging blades, and I can use that to make my son a blade myself. I've already made a number of small utility knives for him and his fellow Marines, but those were small in scale and made by stock removal (NTTAWWT). I really would like to make him a full-size combat blade that will hold up and serve him well in the field.

Thanks again, everyone, for your advice.
 
RyanW said:
First off I think you need to look at the situation and decide if the "online" friendship is worth recovery...

You say you learned a lot from this maker, and appreciate his work. I would send an email stating that you are upset about losing connection with him over something that you feel should not be a concern (For either party), since you stated that it is his personal business. That you never intended to impose your beliefs onto him (And Don't send him a bible, those are the actions that make people angry!), You have a common interest in Knives and forging. Tell him that this is where future conversations (If he allows them) will be focused.

I would also mention that you greatly appreciated his offer receive "Good Karma" by making your son a knife, but that you are not in the relationship for a free knife. I would even go as far as saying that you appreciate his generosity and time put into a knife originally created on your behalf and would be willing to purchase it in order to keep your "Karma" in good standing.

I mean no offense to anyone in this post, I hate posting in these types of threads because things always read differently than they sound in my head...Good luck!
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I would never reach out to, much less give money to, an angry bigot.
 
There are several fine makers here on BF from Kentucky and the surrounding area. I would advise forging some frienships closer to home and letting the other situation be. You will probably never truly know why that person reacted the way they did and to be honest, will it make a difference in the long run? Just chalk it up to a life lesson and move forward with your goals. Sounds like you are well on your way brother.
 
I'd go for a combat cleaver myself. ;)

cleaver_8x10.jpg
 
I've met people who see the world in a black and white way as it's sounds like this maker does.
It's not fun to be around.
It uses up alot of energy being "riled up" , especially about spiritual beleifs.
I'd do as many others have said and move on.
You sent an e-mail explaining you didn't mean to offend.
You have done your part.
Also, good job raising a young man in todays confused world that is willing to join the Marines.
 
Now that you have everyone's attention, perhaps you should use your stage time to ask if there is an experienced maker fairly close to you that could offer some time to help YOU make your son a knife. It would mean quite a bit more to your son coming form you than someone he's never met. It won't take an experienced maker much time to see you well on your way to a nice user for your son.
Just my 2 cents take it or leave it
Matt Doyle
 
philwar said:
At the risk of being flippant (and I certainly don't want to be) I can certainly imagine this guy feeling much the same way about christians as I do about muslims. I really don't like them as a general rule, although individual exceptions certainly exist.
I would not make a knife for the son of a muslim fighting somewhere.
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How do you know that you haven't made a knife for a Muslim son fighting somewhere? Do you have a questionnaire or an interview process to determine which of your clients belong to acceptable religions and which ones don't?

Also, I'm curious in which country your "private asylum" is located? If it's the US, then there are thousands of Muslim US Soldiers, Marines, Seamen and Airmen, that are sons and daughters of someone, fighting for your freedoms as I right this. You wouldn't make a knife for them?

Why exactly don't you like Muslims as a general rule? You do realize that your comment is the very definition of bigotry?

Your comments are a display of the very sentiments that started this thread.
 
philwar said:
I would not make a knife for the son of a muslim fighting somewhere.

...

He is nuts only in the sense that he lets his religion define his attitude towards people who don't believe what he believes.
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Did I miss something here? Also, just for the heck of it, I'd like to note that we don't have any proof that his religion has anything to do with him disliking Christians, even based on the single-sided story that was told.
 
I have always thought that any religion or belief system that condones the hatred of any person or group of people, or in any way discriminates against them for what they say they believe... invalidates itself as being true, which would also hold true on an individual and personal level.

If he were to have said, "I hate Christianity" it would have been much different than saying, "I hate Christians".

I don’t like some of the things people say they believe,... but I don't “hate” the person for it, just disagree.

There’s been so much war and hatred over religion,… isn’t that self defeating?

Isn't it time we stop?
 
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