Is this lock strength hierarchy correct?

[richw]

Tri-ad
Axis
Lockback
Frame lock
Liner lock

Obviously materials, construction quality, etc fall into play, but is that the general consensus on lock strength?

On an aside, i have heard that a framelock is stronger than a liner lock, but I am not sure as to why that would be the case.

Thanks in advance,
Rich

 

[hardheart]

We don't know. Tri-ad appears to have the highest weight hang demonstrated on video.

I haven't seen anything showing a framelock to be stronger/support more weight than a liner lock

 

[PyroSpaz316]

On an aside, i have heard that a framelock is stronger than a liner lock, but I am not sure as to why that would be the case.
Rich

I assume it's just because the piece moving into the blade's path is thicker and therefore less likely to buckle. And your grip is supposed to prevent any accidental disengagement of the lock. Not sure if any of it is true though, I don't have any real evidence.

 

[Tostig]

So many threads on this subject , so many opinions , so many 'facts' , many arguements.

You got it right by putting Tri-ad on top , nothing else is as strong that I can think of.

In my opinion Axis lock is overrated , I own two and have 1/4 the condifence as I would in a framelock.

IMO the top two would be Tri-ad and Framelock but , that is my opinion.

Linerlocks get a lot of heat , I own a few and have not really had any serious problems. I would not trust a linerlock on a knife I was planning on using for heavy tasks.


My two cents.

Do a search on BF , you will find hours upon hours of monotonous opinions regarding this tired subject , no offense intended.



Tostig

 

[richw]

I assume it's just because the piece moving into the blade's path is thicker and therefore less likely to buckle. And your grip is supposed to prevent any accidental disengagement of the lock. Not sure if any of it is true though, I don't have any real evidence.

i thought of that, but usually, from my limited experience, the part that bends on the frame lock tends to be thinner, so that would be similar to the framelock.

 

[richw]

So many threads on this subject , so many opinions , so many 'facts' , many arguements.

You got it right by putting Tri-ad on top , nothing else is as strong that I can think of.

In my opinion Axis lock is overrated , I own two and have 1/4 the condifence as I would in a framelock.

IMO the top two would be Tri-ad and Framelock but , that is my opinion.

Linerlocks get a lot of heat , I own a few and have not really had any serious problems. I would not trust a linerlock on a knife I was planning on using for heavy tasks.


My two cents.

Do a search on BF , you will find hours upon hours of monotonous opinions regarding this tired subject , no offense intended.



Tostig

Thats how i got the opinion that framelocks were stronger than liner locks, but most of the threads were old and inconclusive as to why it was stronger.

 

[hardheart]

STR has already posted on how similar some frame & liner locks are. Sal also stated that the Ti Millie rates like the standard. Mode of failure may differ somewhat based on design, but yes, the thinnest area on both locks is going to be close, if not thinner on some frame locks.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

The stronger locks distribute forces in a similar way, they just use different mechanisms to accomplish similar things. You need to look at not only the lock type but the sizes of the components used in the lock. A lock that has a bigger pivot and bigger stop pin and bigger parts overall, is going to be stronger than the same lock but with smaller parts. This can confuse things.

I would say that the Triad, AXIS, and compression lock are all very similar in strength from a engineering stand point. The knife that uses the biggest lock components will be the strongest. The ball bearing lock should also be right there in strength but needs to stay tight to maintain strength. The Manix 2 has a bushing system on the pivot which may allow the pivot to loosen a little easier than a standard knife pivot.

I would put the frame lock next, then the back lock, then the liner lock. The liner lock is last because I have had the most problems with it and it likes to slide on the blade tang. This can cause it to disengage and while a liner lock that is working correctly may be quite strong, reliability is also important and I have experienced a lack of reliability in a high percentage of the liner locks I have owned. A frame lock should be stronger even though it has a narrow cutout to let it flex. The cut out is short which is one of the critical dimensions when analyzing buckling. The thicker part of the frame lock should greatly reduce the chances of the lock buckling compared to a liner lock. But the placement of the cut out also makes a difference. The back lock can be strong if it is made right and the parts are over sized, or can be weak if made wrong. That is why I like some of the higher end locks like the AXIS and Compression because there are not as many critical dimensions and angles that have to be made just right like on the frame and back lock.

My personal favorite is the AXIS lock and I think it can be made just as strong as any other lock out there. If over sized parts are used and it was really beefed up I think it can be as strong as a lock can be made for a folding knife. It is also ambidextrous, very easy to use one handed without repositioning your hand, and safer because it keeps your fingers out of the blade path. I would be curious to hear why someone doesn't trust it. Other than maybe 20 people on this website saying they have experienced a broken omega spring, I have never heard of one failing. Just my opinion on the subject.

 

[monger4142]

how strong do you really need a lock to be?

imho reliability, ease of disassembly/reassembly, and ease of use matter much more.

 

[ctk123]

you forgot another really strong one, the compression lock

 

[stealthchaser13]

I don't know...I've seen some linerlocks that were stronger than lockbacks.

 

[GWashington1732]

WHat about slipjoints?

I'd probably put lockback or framelock second.

 

[LorenzoL]

The strongest & safest lock I have:

 

[JNewell]

IIRC, STR also posted that (I believe he was speaking of the Emersons) the linerlocks were stronger than the comparable Emerson framelocks. So...there are lots of variables. I don't think the ranking is of any more than very general use, if that.

STR has already posted on how similar some frame & liner locks are. Sal also stated that the Ti Millie rates like the standard. Mode of failure may differ somewhat based on design, but yes, the thinnest area on both locks is going to be close, if not thinner on some frame locks.

 

[Joshua J.]

Total strength is more dependent on what the manufacturer wanted it to be than the type of lock.
Reliability is much more important, and on that scale the Compression lock is king; with the Tri-Ad coming in a close second only because it's so new.

 

[SteelSnob]

It may be right, it may be wrong but in reasonable use I doubt it will ever make any real difference. If you buy a poorly made knife then those might be a factor but in intended folder use it probably will only matter in your mind.

 

[KennyB]

I've never tested any of the locks, but I personally see the design of the AXIS lock as being one of the most overly-built locks on Earth. Between the stop pin, the lock-bar and the pivot there is a lot of material in a very strong configuration. I would assume that the materials and the way the knife was constructed would fail far before the actual design of the AXIS would. However, it does have its design flaws, such as if an Omega spring breaks, then how are you going to keep the lock-bar in position? The stop-pin is the second weakest link in my opinion, because it's actually only being held in place by steel the same width as the liners, and the lock-bar is deceptively thick as when you unscrew the thumbstuds, you can see the part resting on the liners is actually much thinner than the rest. Those two points don't really inspire me to try hanging weight off of it, but overall I'm certainly more confident in it than a liner-lock.

The Tri-Ad lock looks like a framelock on steroids to me. Still a pretty good design, very simple, and again I'm not really seeing a lot of ways that it could fail.

A liner-lock on the other hand, depending on the quality of the build, I think is a touchy locking device. If it doesn't lock squarley, it could shift position and the blade can force it up between itself and the liner. On the other hand, I've never seen this happen with a liner-lock that wasn't some gas station folder where it didn't lock squarely onto the blade, and the liner itself was extremely thin.

So personally I don't think any of them are really "stronger" than each other... At least not in a meningful way, but I do think that liner-locks have a higher probability to be manufactured poorly. Combine that with the fact that even a poorly manufactured frame-lock is quite strong comparatively, and I would say a liner-lock is my least trusted locking design.

Personally though, if I really need to exert as much weight on a handle to be worried about the lock failing, I'm going to use a fix blade. Why risk that kind of failure when you could just use a better tool?

 

[Planterz]

Strength of specific locks depends not only on the materials/build quality, but also depends on what you're doing with the blade. Being able to hang hundreds of pounds of force on a knife trying to close it doesn't mean all that much if you never plan exerting that much force in that direction. Pressure in the opposite direction (ie: cutting stuff) can cause a liner/framelock to engage further down the blade, which causes more wear.

Durability of a lock is also a factor. Liner and framelocks will all eventually wear and make the lock more suspect. Same with a lockback, although wear depends more on quality than usage. The AXIS lock has no difference with wear because of its design. The weak point of the AXIS is obviously the omega springs, but since there's 2, a broken spring won't cause a failure of the lock.

Daily use is also a factor of lock strength. The most likely cause of failure of a lockback is a buildup of crud in the part of the blade where the lock engages. Dust, gunk, pocket lint, etc. Liner and framelocks are significantly less positively locked if there's a bit of side-to-side blade wiggle, which can occur from the pivot loosening from daily use.

Because of all these factors, I would personally say that the safest lock for daily use is the AXIS lock. It won't fail because it wore out, got gunked up, or because the pivot needs tightening a bit. Followed by the plunge lock (mainly on automatics), compression lock, lockback, framelock, and linerlock, in that order. I don't know much about the Triad lock, so I'm not sure where that would place.

Of course, a balisong trumps all of these, but that's comparing an M1 Abrams to 4x4s.

 

[singularity35]

Of course, a balisong trumps all of these, but that's comparing an M1 Abrams to 4x4s.

For sure! I carried a balisong for 20 years before I ever heard of this forum. Not once have I ever experienced lock failure. There's a test that well made balisongs in the Philippines are supposed to pass. This test is stabbing through a one peso coin. The quality of the steel, heat treat, and blade geometry all play a big part, but the biggest factor in this test is, IMHO, technique. I have seen a lot of broken tips but never a broken lock. And some fingers with nasty cuts.

 

[STR]

Lockbacks, as in normal lockbacks are not really going to be all that strong. However, they are strong in all the right ways absorbing a lot of lateral twisting stresses better a lot of the time than liner locks do in the hand. They wear longer and better than liner locks also. Overall though I'd say liner locks are for the majority of knives stronger than lockbacks. You know I doubt the Emerson CQC13 lock is stronger than the Manix or 83mm Manix but it would sure beat out the majority of the FRN handled models like mass produced Kabar Dozier designed lockbacks, and others of this ilk across the board from other manufacturers carried and used by many. Too much focus is on strength. Lockback's have appeal in many uses but their best feature is reliability in most uses (when done well) but like any lock it all depends on how well its executed.

Some lockbacks like the Extreme Ratio Fulcrum lock backs can be tremendously strong traditional style locks although it does have that lock for the lock feature. Its a nice feature that really works too! I personally prefer my lockbacks to be take apart knives so I can be sure of what I'm getting. Pinned lockbacks are a faith based user system as far as I'm concerned. Oh they work okay and I have them but I use them with the same caution I use cheap cheesy liner locks. At least with the liner lock I can see at a glance the status of the lock up and how the lock is behaving under stress unlike the faith based lockback just hoping the manufacturer has a good deep contact seated in the blade for my fingers safety.

I have never seen a lock hold more free weight or take the kinds of abusive whacks and overstrikes the Triad locks have taken in test after test. At this point in time I do rate it the number one lock for equal/ample helpings of strength and reliability. The axis is not far behind in strength I don't think, at least on the ones done the best. It remains to be seen though but I have heard some stories over the time the Axis has been around of guys doing things with them making me think they are indeed quite strong. There are some that feel the buttons can be accidentally disengaged in some uses on certain of these so I don't know that it has the same reliability rating as the the Triad. Taking into account the omega springs I think I'd have to ding the Axis some there which in my mind would cinch second place for it.

Third place? Its in the air really. If we are talking all types of locks I'd stick the Compression lock here and really in many ways it could even be second.

After that no more ribbons. It doesn't matter, well, to me anyway

STR