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Is this lock strength hierarchy correct?

I would think the back lock / Triad would be easier to accidentally unlock than the AXIS lock. There was that video a while back of the guy who either had a Triad fail or accidentally unlock and is the reason the Boye dent was developed. The only way I could see accidentally unlocking the AXIS is if you stabbed it into something and were trying to pull it out. Even then I would think it would have to be stuck and not paying attention.
 
+1 for the Tri-Ad lock. That system is friggin' amazing.

As we all know, the topic of lock strength is highly subjective, and a lot of personal preferences get morphed into anecdotal experience which colors how we see the pros and cons of different lock systems.

For example: I had a certain knife (brand and model shall remain nameless to prevent shading others' opinions) with a titanium framelock. About a week into owning it I noticed some not insignificant blade play. What was happening was that the the stress from the steel-Ti interface between the tang and lock bar was causing minute plastic deformation of the Titanium. Additionally the steel tang was abrading the face of the Ti lockbar as the blade swung open. Net effect = blade play and compromised lock strength.

The thing is that I wasn't planning on hanging from the knife or deliberately testing its lock strength by stabbing car hoods or refrigerator doors. I just wanted to cut stuff up with it, nothing more. But the fact that I could develop blade play by repeatedly opening the knife was more than a little worrisome. Net effect = I am subjectively biased against Titanium framelocks. Does this mean that all Titanium framelocks are going to exhibit this behaviour? Certainly not. Could some other brands/models exhibit similar behaviour? Concievably yes. Statistically speaking, though, the hordes of Strider, Hinderer, ZT, and CRK fanatics/users out there testify to the possibility of doing a Ti framelock "correctly". Plus I have two other Ti framelocks that have exhibited none of these blade play issues, so the jury's out. . .

However, my point is this: Folding knives are made to cut in one direction, and the forces against the blade while cutting are balanced out by immovable frame material. What I demand from a lock system is that it self-adjusts to remove ALL rotational blade play and that it stay locked while doing hard cuts where I have to bear down and put some ass into what I'm cutting through. AND that it do this repeatedly for years and several thousand open/close cycles.

Given these criteria, I am confident that the Tri-Ad, Axis, and Compression lock are going to pass with flying colors. I would never hesitate to buy ANY knife with any of those three locking systems. I've owned some pretty good liner locks, and Ti framelocks, but for me personally I would have to take each one on a case-by-case basis to verify my criteria are met.

In my book the sheer lock strength factors into the sense of confidence I get using a knife, and sense of confidence is the binary go/no-go factor that determines whether I will use said knife or not.

-nate
 
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You missed a few. The Opinel locking ring system is potentially very strong although Opinel could use heavier materials. The two axis design exemplified by AG Russell's Funny Folder can only fail under enough force to shear a pivot pin.

My view is that all the common locking systems, properly executed, are strong enough for any reasonable use.
 
I dont know if this has been mentioned before, but one key aspect that does contribute to the strength of a framelock is that when you grip the knife you can prevent the lock from disengaging accidentally. If a failure does happen then I think it has to be a catastrophic failure.
 
Tri-ad
Axis
Lockback
Frame lock
Liner lock

Rich

Hi Richw,

As mentioned reliability is more important that ultimate strength.

There are quite a few common locks missing from this list. I am curious as to where this hierarchy came from?

sal
 
I can't believe I forgot to mention the button lock. The one one the Hogue EX01 looks aaaaaawwweeesome. Hardened steel on hardened steel contact with a strong spring to keep it in place. I'd buy one RIGHT NOW if I had the cash.

-nate
 
This thread is so pointless for so many reasons.

Locks are NEVER apples to apples.

My Kershaw Leek is a framelock, but I am certain a Spyderco Millie is significantly stronger. However, the Millie is probably weaker than an XM18 or Strider.

While there are strengths intrinsic to the design, the materials, quality, tolerances, and most importantly, INTENDED USE have a much larger bearing on the strength.

Sal, that list is a product of Bladeforum's chair-mounted testing rigs.
 
We have a dedicated machine that breaks things.

It's automated, consistent in pressure and angle, computerized and gives us printed graphs on the break. It's about as scientific as we could create. We get measurement in total force and inch/lbs per inch of blade length when we're breaking locks. Blade lengths are built into the program.

We can break a lock and be accurate as to less than 1 lb. We use the machine to break locks, blades, etc. When we create a new model, we establish what range the lock strength should be and we test and improve the failed parts until we attain the desired strength.

We build for both reliability and ultimate strength.

Reliability is a matter of engineering and materials and attention to detail is very important in lock reliability.

Ultimate lock strength is affected by design and materials and also required attention to details to achieve success. Testing must be consistent, controlling variables if accurate results are expected.

It's just a knife, right? wrong. A modern cutting edge on a modern knife blade has the potential for a serious cut. A hand is a terrible thing to waste.

Naturally we test the competition, as I'm sure they test ours. I would like to say that all of the main players in our industry, especially those that have been around for a while, Do a good job in their locks. Far better than the industry was able to do 20 years ago.

This is one of those areas where "name" means something. These companies did not acquire their good name and good reputation by putting out poor quality or unsafe products.

Knife Locks are a fascinating study. Close tolerance bits of carefully machined and heat treated parts invented and designed to lock a knife blade into an open and safe postion.

All of the lock designs being used are good, if they're made well. All are less than good if made poorly. All have advantages and disadvantages. You are all knife afi's or you wouldn't be reading this. Enjoy them all.

sal
 
I would think the back lock / Triad would be easier to accidentally unlock than the AXIS lock. There was that video a while back of the guy who either had a Triad fail or accidentally unlock and is the reason the Boye dent was developed. The only way I could see accidentally unlocking the AXIS is if you stabbed it into something and were trying to pull it out. Even then I would think it would have to be stuck and not paying attention.

They are close and I certainly like both. I don't know enough at this time to say with assurance and probably never will know enough. What I do know is that I've seen more videos of Axis locks defeating spine whacks than I have Triad locks. I am aware of just one situation where a Triad lock defeated a spine whack and its the video you mention where a guy (who as I understand it is known for cutting himself and having accidents) does experience a cut with a Rajah III model when he apparently depressed the lock bar in a hammer grip wearing thick gloves and depressed it just enough to release the blade to allow it to cut him.

This one video leaves enough room for doubt that it was operator error from an improper grip and not the design or lock as opposed to the videos of Axis locks defeating which just snapped shut due in no part to the user. So, looking at that I don't know. I guess the jury is still out but if we start seeing other issues come up and more videos of Triad's failing I'd be the first to admit that maybe some models need some redesigns for moving the lock bar depression area forward or back or a handle redesign for the curvature or beefier springs and so on. Not that it would do much more than go in one ear and out the other but you know what I mean. ;)

Since this thread is about strength I think the clear winner is the Triad lock. I would have laughed at the idea of a folding knife holding the weight that Espada XL held had I not seen it myself. :thumbup: There are other locks worth mention though. The old Boker Tree Brand lever auto I had was equipped with one heck of a good lock that seemed to me to be A1 for reliable function and strength even if that blade did always have some vertical blade play to it from day one. Once you flipped that lever over after opening that baby fixing the lever so you could not release the pin in the blade it was pretty much a matter of shearing that pin to make it defeat. I think its safe to say thats going to require some force. So strength should not be a problem for one of those, at least when speaking of static load tests. Like any pinned folder lateral stress can take a toll on it and lead to some blade play and perhaps with enough load it could force the knife to pop apart but I think that would only be after a great deal of weight was already on it. Just a guess though.

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/boker-712-tree-brand-lever-lock-knife-new-in

STR
 
STR - Mind posting some links to those videos of the axis locks being defeated? I have looked and haven't been able to find anything. Thanks!
 
The discussion seems too generalized to bear much fruit.

I for one like the concept of framelocks on knives that also uses the thumb studs on the blade as additional reinforcement against the handle(XM-18, Zero Tolerance 0300 series). Perhaps not a huge part of the locking itself, but I still love how Ankerson beats the ZT 0301 around in his video several times and announces, "Zero blade play":thumbup:.

For me, I just don't want the blade to loosen up to significant blade play during regular use. Whether the lock fails or not seems to be irrelevant to my uses since nothing I do will ever involve whacking something with the spine of my knife(I have a hammer for that).
 
I'd agree with the concensus that Tri-Ad is probably number one, it is a beast of a lock, and based on what I've read/researched plus my experience, it would be at the top.

After that...it depends on design and implementation on any particular knife.

I won't ramble on. Sal said it best (like I'm going to argue with Sal on knife structure. :D)

I have sometimes thought we should refer to them as a SAFETY rather than a LOCK, giving more of an acknowledgement to the fack that any can fail and making us more cautious. A folder under heavy stress closing on your hand is a pretty scary thought.
If we are really stressing a knife to that point we should probably be using a fixed blade.
 
I can't believe I forgot to mention the button lock. The one one the Hogue EX01 looks aaaaaawwweeesome. Hardened steel on hardened steel contact with a strong spring to keep it in place. I'd buy one RIGHT NOW if I had the cash.

-nate

Button locks or plunge locks are not very strong at all actually. The plunge that locks the blade open is a thin hollow piece of steel. Hollow because that's where they put the spring to keep it pressed up. I have seen many get cave in and develop lots of play and fold.
 
Yeah I completely agree that lock reliability is just as important as lock strength. What good is a super ultra strong lock when the lock isnt very reliable. Which is why I prefer well done framelocks over just about any other lock because it has less pieces involved that can fail. I rarely ever buy knives based on locks because they all have their merits as well as their negatives.
 
The strongest & safest lock I have:

IMGP4116.jpg


IMGP4117.jpg

What kind of lock is that? It looks like a frame lock + something?
 
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