Isn't an integral frame a step down?

[Comeuppance]

I've run into this concept a few times - mostly in customs, but also in production knives. I feel as if I am missing something, as I see no benefit - in fact, I can think of a few issues with integrals:

- Heavier weight. To have an integral frame, you cannot have spacers, liners, or screws made of steel, which has a notably better strength:weight ratio. That means more material and likely more weight.

- Difficult repair. Integral frame = no parts to switch out. frame becomes damaged or deformed? Sucks to be you. Unless you have very precise machinery, you're not getting that frame back into spec.

- Lack of customization options. No scales! All you can do is anodize / carve, and if you make a mistake, well, see the second issue.

Most integral knives are so pricy that one isn't so likely to use it in conditione where they would become so deformed, but that just exemplifies what a seemingly unnecessary feature it is. It's less sturdy, less serviceable, and extremely expensive. That's my take on it, anyway! Please, share your thoughts.

 

[evilgreg]

This one is an integral and it's not too heavy for me, and I favor small and light in knives:

That said, I don't carry it because it's an integral, I carry it 'cuz it's purdy.

 

[rexromic]

Agree with some of your points(repair,pricing),but would not likely pass on Scott Cook Lochsa integral folder.

 

[Krissig12]

The only real benefit to Integrals in my mind is bragging rights that you have a folder that was harder to make

 

[Kwon Kwang]

I own several framelocks, and I do see some of your points.

I don't think heavier weight is always a thing. I've got some very lightweight framelocks like the CRKT Ripple and the Spyderco Cricket. All depends on how the knife is constructed.

Sucks about the difficulty in repairing. Need to send back to the maker if there's a serious lock issue. Might do that with my Ti Millie soon, especially since mine is the original version without a steel lock insert.

I think there's lots of customization options...on the side of the handle without the lock. I never liked that either.

I'll need to seriously disagree with you about price, though. There's lots of inexpensive framelock folders, some of them are even titanium.

I'll take a framelock over a liner lock any day, but I'll also pretty much always take a lockback or Axis lock over those and a Triad lock over anything else.

 

[Scurvy092]

Less parts.

No standoffs or backspacers to deal with when reassembling.

Guaranteed to have ridiculously tight tolerances in order to function.

No hotspots in hand from the top of the handle scales/frames/liners digging into your palm.

Every platform has it's benefits and issues. Nothing is perfect.

 

[115Italian]

We are talking framelocks right? I think there are many positives. The lock bar itself is usually thicker than a liner. Simply grabbing and holding the knife handle keeps the lockbar from unlocking.

 

[bld522]

This one is an integral and it's not too heavy for me, and I favor small and light in knives:

That said, I don't carry it because it's an integral, I carry it 'cuz it's purdy.

It sure is! And it's good to see you, Greg. You were pretty scarce there for awhile. Hope all's well with you.

 

[austonh]

Every platform has it's benefits and issues. Nothing is perfect.

Well said.
I enjoy the complexity and seamless nature of integral knives.
By early next year there will be at least 4 production companies making integral knives: LionSteel, Spyderco, Custom Knife Factory and Microtech. Even among integral knives, it's great to have variety and choices.

 

[Comeuppance]

To Kwon and 115:

To be completely clear, I'm talking about -integral- frame locks, where the entire handle is comprised of one solid billet of titanium that has usually been CNC milled, as opposed to a scale, spacer, and scale sandwich.

 

[TexasWade]

The thing is, we don't all prefer liner locks. Just because it's not what you prefer doesn't mean it's inferior.

Less parts = less parts to fail,less stuff to cram into a limited space and less places for dirt to get trapped inside. And if you like, you have the option to make a thinner knife by having less stuff to stack up as well. There's pros and cons to everything and different strokes for different folks

 

[115Italian]

To Kwon and 115:

To be completely clear, I'm talking about -integral- frame locks, where the entire handle is comprised of one solid billet of titanium that has usually been CNC milled, as opposed to a scale, spacer, and scale sandwich.

O..o you mean the once piece type where the handles can't come apart. Sorry i got confused. There are negatives with that over say a Zt framelock.

 

[ATwistedStaple]

The thing is, we don't all prefer liner locks. Just because it's not what you prefer doesn't mean it's inferior.

Less parts = less parts to fail,less stuff to cram into a limited space and less places for dirt to get trapped inside. And if you like, you have the option to make a thinner knife by having less stuff to stack up as well. There's pros and cons to everything and different strokes for different folks

There's still some confusion here I think. He's not simply referring to frame locks. He's talking about knives with an integral frame. In such knives there are no handle scales, but a single machined piece of aluminum or titanium. Think of it like a taco shell rather than a sandwich.

I agree with the OP as well, seems like more of a novelty than an actual feature.

That said, the Lionsteel pictured above is gorgeous.

 

[Jesse B.]

It's an interesting question as to whether a monolithic handle confers any "real" advantage over a slab-based handle. I don't have a great answer...

...but with the LS SR1 and ZT 0551, for instance, I feel that if I ever manage to break (the handles of) either of these knives--I'm probably not using them correctly.
The points about the extra weight and lack of customization are taken.

 

[RamZar]

Repair is a downside since you have very little room to work with in a narrow confine. It's very tedious the first time. One solid block for the frame is extremely sturdy. LionSteel even made light integral frames of CF and Micarta in the TM-1 series. The CF frame is very light but the thick blade of the TM-1 adds weight.

I did try the Chinese made Stedemon SHY integral aluminum frame but it has nasty tool marks on the inside of the frame so I returned it. LionSteel has done integral aluminum frame locks in SR-1 and SR-2 models and they cost less than SHY!

Reate made a scale with included backspacer on the Horizon-A that I have and that makes for a pretty solid base too but it's not an integral frame. I believe something similar is being done for the Todd Begg Steelcraft Mini Bodega made by Reate.

 

[evilgreg]

It sure is! And it's good to see you, Greg. You were pretty scarce there for awhile. Hope all's well with you.

You too, Bruce. Life had me busy with this and that, and for a while I was getting my knife chatter from part of reddit so I sort of faded out of here. I recently quit reddit altogether, though, and now I've got more time on my hands as well so here I am, happy to be back.

 

[evilgreg]

I did try the Chinese made Stedemon SHY integral aluminum frame but it has nasty tool marks on the inside of the frame so I returned it. LionSteel has done integral aluminum frame locks in SR-1 and SR-2 models and they cost less than SHY!

That's odd; the inside of the frame of my Stedemon Shy is clean and smooth. I just picked it up and looked at it again now, and I don't see a mark on it. Maybe yours was a lemon?

 

[RamZar]

That's odd; the inside of the frame of my Stedemon Shy is clean and smooth. I just picked it up and looked at it again now, and I don't see a mark on it. Maybe yours was a lemon?

Sounds like it. I did like the tanto blade, narrow profile, lightweight for a 3.75" blade and good looks. I never bothered with a replacement. My order was from May 2015.

 

[fetzer85]

I have a lot of 'integral' fixed blades. [emoji6]

I do have a question about integrals though - is removing and reinstalling the blade tricky?

 

[evilgreg]

Sounds like it. I did like the tanto blade, narrow profile, lightweight for a 3.75" blade and good looks. I never bothered with a replacement. My order was from May 2015.

I like the knife a lot, actually, for the same reasons. Nice looking and is light and carries well for a large blade. I think I got mine a little later, maybe in June?

Here is the one I have (excuse the quick and dirty cell phone shot):

And here is (again with the cell phone) a snapshot of the smooth, albeit dusty, interior of my Shy's frame:

You can only see the back well there, but all surfaces on the interior are smooth and clean as far as I can tell.