Isn't an integral frame a step down?

Integral is the slab-sided (with scales) framelock taken to the extreme. Sure, it costs more, but may be more "stable" as few screws to come loose. I'm not convinced that it's worth the price difference...at least not to me.
I am very happy with my more-or-less standard framelocks, but the intergrals are interesting.
 
Sonnydaze said:
Integral is the slab-sided (with scales) framelock taken to the extreme. Sure, it costs more, but may be more "stable" as few screws to come loose. I'm not convinced that it's worth the price difference...at least not to me.
I am very happy with my more-or-less standard framelocks, but the intergrals are interesting.
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No argument, I think it's mostly a novelty thing as well. That said, the aluminum integral I posted on the previous page goes for ~$240 and IMO, it's a fair bit of knife for the price. It's a 3.75" bladed integral that (at least on mine) has great fit and finish and feels tanky strong while only weighing four ounces. It carries really small for a big knife, too.
 
From an engineering perspective, an integral frame gives you a lot more rigidity than a multi-piece frame with the same amount of material. So in that respect, it allows you to reduce the amount of material you use (for weight or size), or use a less rigid material like aluminum for your integral, and still end up with a very solid frame. From the perspective of someone with a bit of machining experience, I like the idea that you can take a solid block and turn it into a one-piece functional part. There's a certain elegance about it. Also, as someone mentioned, it indicates that there is a certain tolerance to the machining, and that lends some confidence in the rest of the manufacturing process. Also, integrals can be designed to have fewer hotspots than normal framelocks, since you don't have seams between different components.

I sometimes EDC a plain Lionsteel TISpine, and I'm eyeing a Spyderco Nirvana.
 
Less screws / parts to fail. Pros and cons -- just like evvverthing else.

50an6xy06r6n said:
From an engineering perspective, an integral frame gives you a lot more rigidity than a multi-piece frame .
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This was my thought too -- although I've done nothing to back up said thought. Someone with my time then me go do some FEA real quick.

Hahah. "Real quick" he says. Ha.
 
I do like to take my folders apart once in a while and clean them. Wipe down the insides and gaze as their construction before i put them back together.
 
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Comeuppance said:
I've run into this concept a few times - mostly in customs, but also in production knives. I feel as if I am missing something, as I see no benefit - in fact, I can think of a few issues with integrals:

- Heavier weight. To have an integral frame, you cannot have spacers, liners, or screws made of steel, which has a notably better strength:weight ratio. That means more material and likely more weight.

- Difficult repair. Integral frame = no parts to switch out. frame becomes damaged or deformed? Sucks to be you. Unless you have very precise machinery, you're not getting that frame back into spec.

- Lack of customization options. No scales! All you can do is anodize / carve, and if you make a mistake, well, see the second issue.

Most integral knives are so pricy that one isn't so likely to use it in conditione where they would become so deformed, but that just exemplifies what a seemingly unnecessary feature it is. It's less sturdy, less serviceable, and extremely expensive. That's my take on it, anyway! Please, share your thoughts.
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Agreed. Solution to a non-existent problem.
 
Lionsteel makes a knife with a light weight integral handle. It's called the Ti Dust. It's the only knife I know of that can be used to strain spaghetti. I would post a picture, but B/F no longer lets me post pictures from my ipad (my former "valid attachments" are no longer valid).
 
The OP makes some valid points, but to me an integral is much like a diamond. It's a beautiful work of art in its finished state. You start with material in the rough, and after the craftsman is finished with his modification and shaping you have the finished diamond. The finished diamond should not need future customization or repair in the future. If it needs future special attention, just like in the case of the diamond, unless there is abuse, the reputable craftsman will render aid to his/her customers. If you feel the need to customize your knives, there are plenty of candidates available for your procurement. I believe there are just some examples of jewelry that you just don't try to change, because, just like the example posted by Evilgreg, it doesn't need it, and this is the only type of integral I'd purchase. Just my humble opinion.
 
To me an integral knife is a fixed blade knife.

After the OP clarified in a post further down the page, I get what the OP means.

Is this the accepted terminology: 'integral' in the sense that the OP and others use it for a folder?

Just wondering.....
 
I like the simplicity of the SRIA I own. Less handle screws, very rigid. I don't give much thought to customizations, or the possibility the handle could break. The handle on this knife is very substantial, think it would outlast any handle made out of scales and standoffs for sure.
 
BladeScout said:
To me an integral knife is a fixed blade knife.

After the OP clarified in a post further down the page, I get what the OP means.

Is this the accepted terminology: 'integral' in the sense that the OP and others use it for a folder?

Just wondering.....
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We're talking about integral frames of a folder where the handle is made from a solid piece of material and milled out. There are no two separate scales joined together by screws and backspacer/standoffs.
 
I think at this point they are used by makers to prove they have the skill needed to make such a knife. Tony Marfione figured a way around the whole lock bar issue by making the locking bar on the ANAX bolt on. This allows the knife to be very limited in its number of parts while at the same time making it relatively easy to service.
 
Personally I prefer frame locks over liner locks. With a frame lock, your hand holds the lock closed just by gripping the knife. It also feels solid and strong (to me anyway)
 
Comeuppance said:
I've run into this concept a few times - mostly in customs, but also in production knives. I feel as if I am missing something, as I see no benefit - in fact, I can think of a few issues with integrals:

- Heavier weight. To have an integral frame, you cannot have spacers, liners, or screws made of steel, which has a notably better strength:weight ratio. That means more material and likely more weight.

- Difficult repair. Integral frame = no parts to switch out. frame becomes damaged or deformed? Sucks to be you. Unless you have very precise machinery, you're not getting that frame back into spec.

- Lack of customization options. No scales! All you can do is anodize / carve, and if you make a mistake, well, see the second issue.

Most integral knives are so pricy that one isn't so likely to use it in conditione where they would become so deformed, but that just exemplifies what a seemingly unnecessary feature it is. It's less sturdy, less serviceable, and extremely expensive. That's my take on it, anyway! Please, share your thoughts.
Click to expand...

With the upcoming Nirvana (and its price), I've been considering similar points. I've been holding out on picking up a LionSteel integral for awhile, just to see how initial reports of the Spyderco compare. Its looks to carry well for its size, whereas the SR-1 seems more bulky.
 
ArchVV said:
With the upcoming Nirvana (and its price), I've been considering similar points. I've been holding out on picking up a LionSteel integral for awhile, just to see how initial reports of the Spyderco compare. Its looks to carry well for its size, whereas the SR-1 seems more bulky.
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I was going to mention the Spyderco Nirvana as well..not sure how long the real deal Nirvana has been in production by Peter Rassenti.
I've started seeing more integrals (both custom and midtech) lately. Time will tell if the idea has staying power.
 
ArchVV said:
With the upcoming Nirvana (and its price), I've been considering similar points. I've been holding out on picking up a LionSteel integral for awhile, just to see how initial reports of the Spyderco compare. Its looks to carry well for its size, whereas the SR-1 seems more bulky.
Click to expand...

The Lionsteels are pretty awesome. The build is really good, bombproof. Only complaint I have is the edge. I have been contemplating knocking off the edge shoulders to see if it will bite better. The blades are still ground pretty well for such thick stock.
 
Maybe we should use the term "monolithic" as used previously, in this thread, as opposed to integral, which could easily be confused with "Reeves' Integral Lock" which means frame lock.

Anyway, yes, it is mainly a bragging right, for the manufacturer, and owner. I happened to trade into a LionSteel TiSpine Aculus, and it is an excellent, elegant and beautiful knife. Lighter than most knives I own that size.

It's sturdy, tight and smooth. I do admit, I'd hate for it to ever develop lock-rock. Definitely not a user serviceable issue, should it happen.

And, tiguy7, I'm jealous, considering the price on that TiDust, wow! That one, I believe, is a 3-D "printed" (laser sintered, rather than spun from a spool of material) handle, and quite unique, at the present time. You need to post a pic.
 
Comeuppance said:
I've run into this concept a few times - mostly in customs, but also in production knives. I feel as if I am missing something, as I see no benefit - in fact, I can think of a few issues with integrals:

- Heavier weight. To have an integral frame, you cannot have spacers, liners, or screws made of steel, which has a notably better strength:weight ratio. That means more material and likely more weight.

- Difficult repair. Integral frame = no parts to switch out. frame becomes damaged or deformed? Sucks to be you. Unless you have very precise machinery, you're not getting that frame back into spec.

- Lack of customization options. No scales! All you can do is anodize / carve, and if you make a mistake, well, see the second issue.

Most integral knives are so pricy that one isn't so likely to use it in conditione where they would become so deformed, but that just exemplifies what a seemingly unnecessary feature it is. It's less sturdy, less serviceable, and extremely expensive. That's my take on it, anyway! Please, share your thoughts.
Click to expand...

I completely, wholeheartedly agree. I sold all but two of mine. Just too cold in the winter, and I just don't like the design.
 
Integrals are more impressive from a manufacturing standpoint, but they remind me of a Mac - they look nice and simple, but they're expensive, only solve problems that are easily (and much more cheaply) addressed, and you don't have the option of servicing it yourself.
 
Daniel Dorn said:
Maybe we should use the term "monolithic" as used previously, in this thread, as opposed to integral, which could easily be confused with "Reeves' Integral Lock" which means frame lock.

Anyway, yes, it is mainly a bragging right, for the manufacturer, and owner. I happened to trade into a LionSteel TiSpine Aculus, and it is an excellent, elegant and beautiful knife. Lighter than most knives I own that size.

It's sturdy, tight and smooth. I do admit, I'd hate for it to ever develop lock-rock. Definitely not a user serviceable issue, should it happen.

And, tiguy7, I'm jealous, considering the price on that TiDust, wow! That one, I believe, is a 3-D "printed" (laser sintered, rather than spun from a spool of material) handle, and quite unique, at the present time. You need to post a pic.
Click to expand...
BladeForums won't let me post pictures from my ipad or iphone anymore. They moved the goalpost. I posted pictures for years. Now they say that my pictures are not valid and erase them. My method of posting hasn't changed, but the acceptance criteria have changed.
 
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