It's hell being a liner lock

Sorry, can't help myself, I"m a weak-minded fool :)

Artfully Martial said:
I genuinely appreciate the opinions here, even if some feel rather adversial.
Click to expand...

When you're writing on the internet, instead of sitting across from each other, sometimes a spirited defense of one's position feels adverserial to another. I don't think any of the responses in this thread are hostile. I'd happily buy you or STR a beer if we met in a bar.

I would ask that my detractors would also keep an open mind.
Click to expand...

I'd just like to give a quick metaphor on what you're asking here. I think it's something like this: A scientist spends 15 years studying a particular phenomenon closely, through years of testing. He finds that he can say, if you test in such-and-such a way, you'll see phenomenon A (say) 20% of the time. He is in touch with the greater community, and other research supports his claims. Now, a brand new scientist comes in, does one test, and does not see phenomenon A. Then the new guy says, "I didn't see phenomenon A, so I don't think it exists. You guys, you should keep an open mind." What's the response?

- We said you'd see it 20% of the time, not every time.
- You didn't even do all the tests (similar to you, right? No torquing, no whippy spine whacks)?
- And you want us to throw out so many years of tests and "keep an open mind"?!?!

Joe
 
This can easily get into a heated debate ArtfullyMartial. There are some guys that just won't drive a Jeep because they roll and some that could give a rats a$$ about the fear mongers saying how dangerous they are and drive one and have driven one for years and even in some extreme situations.

It is always amusing to sit back and watch these type of threads evolve because they take on a life of their own sometimes. Mainly I advise that you watch out for opinions stated as fact. Opinions stated as fact are the main reason the Corvair was discontinued. That and fear, hype, and a lot of BS along with the old saying that if you say something long enough, even a flat out lie, it will eventually be believed. I've been through enough statistics classes to know that you can make anything look any way you want so even so called facts are not always reliable.

All that I have said is pretty much my opinion. I make liner locks and I like them just fine. They are not my favorite though. I prefer lock backs in general but really there is no truly flawless folder. The Axis lock crowd wants you to believe there is but that too is just opinion. My take on that is that when you have a lot of moving parts there are more chances of a problem. Others may disagree on that and that is fine.

In this world what is good for you might not be good for me and it shouldn't necessarily have to be. When things get to the point that people start dictating what proper use is and that they are 'narrow minded' if they don't conform to the 'proper' view it is a sure sign of the heat to follow in a thread. BTW, nice try Joe but I'm not biting. :-)
 
On further research, in my fear of the liner being able to be wedged inbetween the blade and the hilt, I've discovered a small..uh...thing...a round bump on the side of the liner that increases the effective width in one little area so that it can't go in. This explains the flathead test.

Describe the torque test you want me to perform and I'll go ahead and run it.

On another note, Im not sure that the scientific evaluation of this is accurate. As a scientist (in real life), for lack of documented evidence to the contrary, at least, that's been made available to me, I went out and did my own tests. Here are my results. They speak for themself. In the mean time, just be content with letting me believe what I will. If the knife fails on me, it won't hurt you at all, and I won't have any trouble admitting I was wrong.
 
I came here and heard many bad things about liner locks as well. When I got the chance, I picked up my M16 SF to test the lock. I tried one test. I held the handle with one hand and the blade with the other, fingers clear of it closing on them. I started to apply a bit of pressure, and the thing closed suddenly and suprisingly before I even really started applying heavy pressure. Afterwards, it had quite a bit of blade play. I put it away, never to be used again.
 
Oh, Joe. I'll take a scotch and water thanks.
 
I'll take a.....Dr. Pepper....I always feel like such a loser when I tell people I don't drink. People at the university love it though, they always need a DD.

Anyone else want to share success/failure stories with their linerlocks? This is a welcome place for it.
 
J85909266, Joe invited them out for drinks earlier in the thread. I would take a Rusty Nail, but don't drink much either.

STR said:
Opinions stated as fact are the main reason the Corvair was discontinued.
Click to expand...

You mean it had nothing to do with the car being butt ugly? :p

_______________

Anyway Artfully, the only thing I would add is that you need to remember where you're at. People round here are pretty passionate, and the liner lock debate is like Ford & Chevy among car guys.

Most of what you hear on the forums are based anecdotal research through years of reading the forums, buying our own knives and conversing with people that have similar experiences.

I personally have had more liner locks that would fail with a tap on my knee than I have had ones that wouldn't. These knives ranged anywhere from $99 production pieces to $700 customs. A couple were even custom frame locks!

One that will always stick out in my mind was a $550 liner lock from a "Top 10" custom maker. I was cutting a thread under the surface of my desk, as I was bringing the knife up to close it I bumped the back of the tip on the bottom of the desk and it closed immediately with a lot of force. Luckily my fingers were not in the way.

All of my opinons are just that, opinions. Since these days I carry a slipjoint 90% of the time I don't worry about it much. Of the 20 or so tacticals I own they are all Axis locks, lock backs and one frame lock that meets my standards.

I stopped buying liner locks because I got sick of the hit or miss frustrations of getting a good one, and I feel there are better designs out there. My first choice is a lock back but that's only because there's not enough Axis locks on the market. I sure wish Benchmade would license it out!

By the way, since the Axis came out there have been hundreds of fans of other locks doing everything they can to discredit it. If there was a fatal flaw it would have been identified years ago. Now the only thing the detractors have to say bad about it is that they are afraid the springs will break. There's all of about 6 reported cases of that happening... ;)
 
Joe, is the highest percentage of failures in linerlocks because its the hardest to consistently make perfect (or as near as damn) or is it the holder of the highest number of failures because its a: The most common lock, so by virtue of that it would score high on failure. b: The easiest lock to make, or rather the cheapest so a lot of E Asian stuff is made using a LL and they are subject to failure.

How many Benchmade knives suffer from this? Is it just the cheaper brands like CRKT? Has anyone done a thorough test of LL failure from reputable manufacturers compared to their non LL models?

With all due respect here to the guys that have been in the 'game' a long time, I fear I must side with the likes of STR (Especially the Scotch as long as it starts with a G ;) ) in that, one would really have to be a little crazy to use a folding knife weighing a few ounces for such an abusive job as stabbing and then torquing (sp). Again I agree that the buying public, or at least the reasonably informed ones would'nt use a folding knife in a manner that would put an oil rig to shame.
 
I am a single malt guy yes.

As for the Corvair comment: it sure was butt ugly. Dawg ugly. My mom had one though and it did have two high performance carbs on it.

Back to knives. I like all the locking knives really and have had very little trouble with any of them over more years than I want to recall.

Of the ones that have failed there were two. One was an old Buck 110 that took one hell of a beating before the lock gave out suddenly and without warning. You know that little ledge that snaps down into the blade on the lock bar. Well, it came right off. Couldn't have been any cleaner than if you cut it off with a wheel.

As for the other one that failed. It didn't fail during use like the first one. It could just be made to fail and it was indeed a liner locking folder by a well known custom maker. I did the repair on that one myself by bending the lock more so it went farther in on the blade when you opened it and that fixed it for good. It was one of those locks that barely engaged when you opened it and sure enough it could be made to fail by pushing on the spine of the blade with light pressure. Did it turn me away from liner locks? No. I still carry them and still use them in my own 'narrow minded' way. LOL>
 
Temper said:
Joe, is the highest percentage of failures in linerlocks because its the hardest to consistently make perfect (or as near as damn) or is it the holder of the highest number of failures because its a: The most common lock, so by virtue of that it would score high on failure. b: The easiest lock to make, or rather the cheapest so a lot of E Asian stuff is made using a LL and they are subject to failure.
Click to expand...

Temper, I feel strongly that it's the most difficult to consistently make reliable. The liner lock was the most popular for a while, though I'd argue that the pendulum is solidly swinging the other way over the past few years. But I've always tried to look at this as a matter of probability (if you take 10 at random, how many will fail) versus absolute number of failures.

How many Benchmade knives suffer from this? Is it just the cheaper brands like CRKT? Has anyone done a thorough test of LL failure from reputable manufacturers compared to their non LL models?
Click to expand...

While I've always maintained that some companies are obviously better than others when it comes to liner lock reliability, I also see that when it comes to liner locks, all makers and manufacturers have more trouble making them reliable than they do their other formats. In fact, that's what clinches it for me: if even the best have trouble, what chance does everyone else have? While I don't think anyone has done a super-scientific controlled double-blind test, you can talk to many people with big collections (e.g., me) who can tell you their liner locks -- as a percentage -- fail way way more often than other types. And you get enough guys with big enough collections over enough years, and you start to see a consistent picture that's pretty convincing.

With all due respect here to the guys that have been in the 'game' a long time, I fear I must side with the likes of STR (Especially the Scotch as long as it starts with a G ;) ) in that, one would really have to be a little crazy to use a folding knife weighing a few ounces for such an abusive job as stabbing and then torquing (sp).
Click to expand...

Well, why? Axis locks and well-done lockbacks etc. can handle this no problem (as I stated earlier, the only reason this is controversial at all is because liner locks fail more often, so either you have to attack the test, or re-think your beliefs on liner locks). Really, if a knife is sold as tactical or hard-use or do-everything or defensive-use, I would say you'd be crazy not to test it that way -- in fact, the maker is pretty much telling you that this is the kind of thing that the knife can handle. I'm being honest here, I don't get it: if the maker is advertising for tactical-style use, why in the world is this is bad test, just because one particular lock format can't handle it? There are plenty of other lock formats that handle it just fine. I have a little group of axis locks, and I would not fear doing this with a single one. Just don't ask me to do it with my liner locks.

Now of course, if the knife is obviously a moderate-use light EDC type knife, stabbing and torquing super hard isn't warranted. If it's a bona-fide gents' folder, then even lighter testing is called for. No argument, I promise! But stabbing and torquing by hand really isn't that hard of a test, particularly for a hard-use folder.

Joe
 
STR said:
Most liner and frame locking folders will hold up just fine and can even be quite impressive until a goodly amout of twisting torque is applied to them.
Click to expand...
It is just wrist strain, it isn't even what I would call difficult as it is something I can do over and over without excessive fatigue. It is also very low compared to what would be necessary to break the blade or handle so the liner/integral is a huge bottleneck.

Now I would not argue that everyone needs this level of performance, lots of people don't torque their blades. Lot of people treat knives as really fragile tools, when in fact they are usually several times more capable with the right design.

Last night I spent some time splitting hardwood birch flooring by batoning a knife into the end and just twisting by rolling my wrist down. Is this "extreme" or "ungodly", I would call both a huge exaggeration - the knife I was doing it with had a blade less than 1/8" thick, full flat grind, very narrow, and cost ~20$. It was also a folder.

Artfully Martial said:
I must either have an extraordinarily rare liner lock ...
Click to expand...
No, you need to read more carefully. As a scientist, the first part of a serious research project is a literature search, this would have turned up several facts :

-even those who are most critical of liner locks have never made the arguement that the majority are extremely problematic

-it has always been clear that some are much worse that others

-some are extremely stable, Joe in particular did a report on gents knives at a custom show which easily took very hard torques with no problems

-the same gamut of tests are run on all different types of folders

-many makers and dealers call these tests abusive, which should tell you something because they will not support the lock functioning during the work, this is probably the most important aspect

The anti liner lock coalition, or ALLC, as I'll call it, has successfully created an argument that I can't dispute.
Click to expand...
This type of nonsense really weakens your position. Instead of trying to create some kind of mythical coalition to discredit the opposition just focus on quality work.

People have been doing this type of evaluation for over ten years with literally hundreds of folders each. It isn't like Joe and Steve examined one liner lock and then started making post after post talking about problems.

If after handing a few dozen liner locks your fail rate is not significant then you can expect to have a solid base of contention.

As a scientist though you have to realize that simply due to statistics this is going to happen every now and again. Even if liner locks had a 25% fail rate, you would still expect that a lot of people would never have a problem with multiple samples.

You can't expect one voice to turn an arguement, especially when you don't have the maker support behind you.

-Cliff
 
More accurately 'it is just wrist strain on some, but not all of them'.

Have you done any testing on the tab locking folders? And why is it that liner locks fail more often than frame locks? In my own observations frame locks are more likely to barely engage very much of the blade when you open the knife.

In my own experiences, not that I've 'officially' tested them, because I haven't, but in my observations I should say, the ones that have a stop pin supported by a set screw that goes all the way across the width of the knife are more stable than the ones that have stop pins just flopping lose in there held in place by the squeeze of the pivot pin.

In other words with another set screw up front to help or aid the pivot pin it makes the twisting torque scenario harder to pull off. I'm not saying it still can't be done though. I just think this makes for a significant improvement.

On my own liner locks I make the spacer bar and the blade stop a one piece bar of hardened steel with a screw going through the area of the stop. That in conjunction with a short wide thick lock seems to work well. I'm not saying it is fail safe but I believe it is a better lock and a more supported one than some of the ones described above with no support on the stop pin.

Here is a pic of a drawing I made up with the spacer bar/blade stop all one piece. All the dots on this would be where the screws would be secured.



ModifiedFreer-copy.jpg
 
Artfully Martial said:
Anyone else want to share success/failure stories with their linerlocks? This is a welcome place for it.
Click to expand...

I've got two liner locks. Both fairly new, both from very reputable manufacturers. One can be made to fail with med-light spine whacks on a somewhat cushy surface(mouse pad) maybe one time in ten. Close observation shows that the lock bar is actually bouncing with every spine whack, it just doesn't always bounce all the way open at just the right time to fail. The other one is like a rock with any reasonable force or surface that I tested.

Since I grew up with slipjoints and still carry them quite a bit, I've got pretty careful habits and I never really fully trust any folder. So far, it's worked, I still have all my fingers. I've also resolved not to buy any more liner locks.

Gordon
 
STR said:
More accurately 'it is just wrist strain on some, but not all of them'.
Click to expand...
It is just wrist strain on all the ones I use, with regards to torques anyway.

Have you done any testing on the tab locking folders?
Click to expand...
No, I stopped seriously looking at liners as hard use blades years ago after seeing them fail, and then talking about it with Joe and reading work Steve had done. There are simply much better locks.

I don't doubt solid ones exist, Joe has described many, but all the ones I have seen can be disengaged in one way or another and thus the scope of work is restricted far beyond what the blade can do so I'll buy a lock which isn't so restricted.

The ones I use are typically donated for a review, the last liner lock I bought was from Swamp Rat which I wanted mainly for the steel.

And why is it that liner locks fail more often than frame locks?
Click to expand...
They are generally higher end so more care is taken in their construction. For a long time there were production liners vs custom integrals like the Sebenza and people both used the productions harder and the QC is not as high so a much larger bank of problems were reported.

Plus people are far more willing to talk negtively about production vs custom. You will note comments like "I had a well known custom liner fail." vs "I had a Kershaw Vapor torque release.". This also skews the discussion towards a lower perception of production vs custom.

-Cliff
 
This thread brought back some good feedback from everyone.

As the topic of this thread is 'liner locks' it only seems appropriate to include this link for all to read (if you haven't already).

http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/liners.txt

The life of the locking folder is to a large extent and evolution. Many guys condemn or rather, don't care for the Walker, or liner style of lock but historically it has it's place. Sure things improved as they always do. I mean none of us are driving Model T Fords now are we.

The above link puts things in a perspective of the history of the liner lock.

I am sure that some of you hard core anti liner lock folks can find fault in the testing procedures done but that is an issue already discussed. Let the information here speak for itself. History can't be changed, all we can do is move forward. As much as some of you guys hate the liner lock, it did change the face of the folder as we know it from the first one made til today..
 
Relax, the coalition thing was just a joke. I keep trying to tell folks. I don't have thousands of dollars to spend on breaking knives. Anyone who wants can send me their liner locks for testing, or more obviously, repeat my tests and post your results. I'm only trying to find the truth. My experience with liner locks was different than this board's, so I wanted to find out. I found out.

I don't have a position, by the way. I have my results, they speak for themselves. Had the lock failed, I'd be talking an entirely different story.
Furthermore, I don't care if your liner lock sucks. Mine is stronger than my lockbacks. I want my knives to be tough. You guys are smart enough to buy and use whatever you'd like.

The book is closed. The testing is done, as best as it can be (without tons of money for more knives). I did exactly what people told me would make my knife fail. They were wrong.

My concern is that so many people are so biased. It's almost as if they have something personal to gain from discrediting liner locks. If nothing else, let this test prove to you that at least some liner locks are extremely strong. I would not try these tests with most of my lock backs (the ones that fail on me). Except for the 560C. That thing's a monster.

I wish there was some way I could lock this topic. This post-testing discussion isn't going anywhere. Just let the review stand, I don't want to talk about this anymore--it boils down to this "this lock is okay" (one side) "no it's not" (other side). That doesn't get us anywhere, so seriously, let the post die. I don't want to delete so future people can search and benefit from my testing. I know that my comments like "it feels like so many people are biased" etc are just begging for some kind of defense response, but let it go. Moderators, can you guys just close this one up without deleting it?
 
This thread has never even risen to a 'luke warm' debate, let alone a 'heated' one so I see no reason to close it. If you are through posting that is all well and good but I think we need to allow the other members the opportunity to speak their mind IMO. Eventually the thread will die off on it's own.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top