John Powell stops by the Titanic.

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It is just a word and i am sure that Spiral did not mean to offend. It is good to know what certian words imply in certian cultures. When i first came to the US, i thought that Negro was an acceptable word. That is the term we used in school in Singapore as a simple noun. Figured out that it was not apporiate rather quickly when i came to the US. I also used to call erasers rubbers.

Picture this-Me and my sister in a busy bookstore, my sister ask the clerk "pardon, where are the rubbers?" Clerk: "Ummm, we do not have rubbers here". Sister: "no, you must, the big white ones from Germany". Then i put 1 and 1 together, whispered in my sisters ear, she blushed and made straight for the door.

Now what were we talking about? Ah yes, good friends and good food :)

alf
 
Talk about a thread being hijacked. :)

One of the problems with the electronic medium we're communicating over presently is that it's very easy to take things out of context. Something that would be perfectly innocuous (mainly due to body language) in everyday conversation seems completely inappropriate when typed; same when going the other way. How many times have you told a joke in person and got a lot of laughs, then typed it up later and realized, "This kind of lost something in the translation." I know that this happens to me all the time.

It's all in the delivery.

The aggrieved parties will have to work out their own peace, of course, but I personally don't think that any harm was intended by anyone. We'll have to give this thread another page before that happens. :p

-- Satori, the Yank Kraut Jew (say that ten times quickly :) )
 
I could agree with all of the above IF this were the first time we have been over this, BUT it isnt.

Furthermore, I have a feeling if I started using the word "ni@@er" in every other post, noone would chalk it up to "something lost in the translation."
 
Danny,

Friend, you know that's not at all the same thing. What we were addressing is a simple shortening of an accepted word for a group, not a pejorative.
Examples: Yank, Brit, Jap: non-pejorative. Kraut, Frog: pejorative.
(Hint: it's your problem; get over it.)

If someone has been forced to apologize for something, that means the word is a "bad" word? Really.

(1) That's an "ad populum" call, a fallacy of argument, equating popularity with validy.
(2) As an example, David Howard, of the D.C. Office of Public Advocate, was pressured into resigning in 1997 after using the word niggardly.

nig·gard·ly Audio pronunciation of "niggardly" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ngrd-l)
adj.

1. Grudging and petty in giving or spending.
2. Meanly small; scanty or meager: left the waiter a niggardly tip.

niggard·li·ness n.
niggard·ly adv.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

As far as asking someone politely- if I "politely" asked you to stop breathing, does that mean you should? One should do everything politely, regardless of the expected outcome.

Regards,

John: Ninpo Ikkan!
 
DannyinJapan said:
I could agree with all of the above IF this were the first time we have been over this, BUT it isnt.

Furthermore, I have a feeling if I started using the word "ni@@er" in every other post, noone would chalk it up to "something lost in the translation."
Click to expand...

I don't know your history and I won't go there. It's none of my business and had I known about it, I probably would have reacted differently.

If you were to start talking like that I would not be particularly offended; I wouldn't be offended if you started tossing slurs appropriate to me around either. I've heard it all before in the service and I'm sure that I'll hear it afterwards. I would certainly be offended if they were meant in a disrespectful matter...but I would be offended if someone called me an idiot in a disrespectful matter as well. I'm most concerned with intent -- the rest is just words.

That being said, different people have different thresholds and if something offends someone, regardless of intent, it should not be said in their presence. I agree with you on this point. If I came across as adversarial I apologize, that wasn't my intent. I didn't know the whole story.

I suppose that's what I get for stepping into a situation with a history that I don't know about...me and my big mouth. :footinmou :)
 
Ok Danny,

I will state yet again,{untill you hear me.} I use Jap the same way I use Brit, Kuk or Kothi. It is a shortening of the full length word. It is not used in any derogotory manner.

I treat all men I meet as fellow human biengs, & judge them as I find them to be, as an individual person.{This includes you.}

Your arguments are illogical & Irrelevant. The use of "its not just me" is a youthfull & manipulative defense, rather than just stating the your belifs, feeling ,thoughts & any relavent facts.

Danny says..."

You know, it's not just me. One of the coaches for the Dallas cowboys recently was forced to make a public apology after having used the word "jap".

The Associated Press
Updated: 5:48 p.m. ET June 08, 2004IRVING, Texas - Bill Parcells won't be fined by the NFL for calling surprise plays used in practice "Jap plays," a remark for which he later apologized and called inappropriate.

Parcells was talking to reporters at the team's minicamp about how his quarterbacks coach and defensive coordinator try to outdo each other when he made the comment, an apparent reference to Japan's 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor."
......................
Spiral says.

If Parcells had used the term you presumably would prefer he used. "Japanese plays" it would still have been derogotory as it is labaling a race with a steryotyped behavour. {In this case a stealthy surprise attack.. {Bit like real Ninjas perhaps?} Can you see that? The word jap wasnt the derogotory part of the statement.

....................................
Danny says "
I could agree with all of the above IF this were the first time we have been over this, BUT it isnt."
................................

Spiral says..

Please correct me if I am wrong but I dont think we have discused this before? If we have I know I would have told you I will continue to use the words jap,brit,kuk etc. As I dont appreaciate people telling me to follow there commands & wishes, just because they say please.

You probably discussed it with others on the forum but ,not it was not between us.
.................

I also wonder if Satori now thinks your Japanese & if so, how do you realy feel about that?

I think this is your issues Danny ,not mine. I will not adjust my speech in this case because, I think it you who needs to look at this{judging from your reaction & arguments} not me.

I dealt with my own bigotry many ,many years back & then grew & moved on in life.

Foremost We are all humans under the sun. That comes before race, religion, gender or political beliefs.

Spiral the round eye, hairy arse, white belly, smelly barbarian, limey. gaigin
 
In English speaking cultures the shortening of names is used, and generally accepted, in an affectionate manner.

In Japanese language and culture the shortening of names is offensive.

So, "Brit or Aussie" have very different connotations than "Jap or Nip."

That's not PC. It's polite and cosmopolitan.

Danny, I know that Spiral likes to pick a fight and be the expert sometimes. I enjoy his posts, and I can accept that facet of his personality. (ie. I like Spiral as he is.) You probably shouldn't take him so seriously. There's no need to turn a thread like this into a silly argument.

I'm just throwing out this comment. It's not a flame to either side. I won't stop back in here to see responses, because I'm not trying to stoke a fire. Aduse me for that if you'd like :) (Personally, I'm expecting Bruise to jump all over me!)
 
I dont know what Satori thinks, why would you eve nask such a question?

If you truly were not here when we had the "jap" discussion then I apologise.
I could have sworn you were here for the last twelve months or so.

If you honestly dont know what I'm talking about, just ask Yvsa.
 
Thanks for the info Bismark, Next time I am with Japanese people ,I will bear it in mind.

Otherwise on general forum discusians I wont, as none of us would ever say anything , to anyone , because some tribe in the Amazon, Israil , England or outer mongolia might percieve it as rude.


Bismark also says...

Danny, I know that Spiral likes to pick a fight and be the expert sometimes. I enjoy his posts, and I can accept that facet of his personality. (ie. I like Spiral as he is.) You probably shouldn't take him so seriously.


Spiral Says.

Thankyou for this gift Bismark of allowing me to see myself through your eyes. ;) :D


Ive been on this forum since Nov.2002 Danny But havent been involed in the said discusian with you.

You seem unable to deal directly with me & always resort to global staements. {us, we, evryone, in the past etc.}

Presumably thats why you now wish Yvsa to become involved?

Personaly ,I think Yvsa probably sees me as I am. An imperfect, sometimes ornery human bieng who deals with each man as I find them.

I would also point out to you that the most racial, biggoted comments {imho} ,I have read on this forum have come from you in relation to the Japanese.{there rudness etc. regarding people who eat to much etc.}

Thats why I suggested you look at yourself.{in the comfort & privacy of your own home.}


So I say again & hope you see that for me this is the truth.

Foremost We are all humans under the sun. That comes before our race, religion or gender.

Spiral the round eye brit, limey. gaigin
 
i've got one thing to say to you Spiraltwista.

is it true that you Brits make the best fish & chips?

I'm dying for a good fish and chips.
 
Hi Dave, Well I dont know whether they are the best, As I have only eaten in them in a few countries , but yes they can be good, especialy if you live by the sea. {I do }

When friends from the States or Demark have visited they say my local fish & chips are better than they find at home. {The Yanks laugh at the British steaks though! & the danes think all british bread is stale!}

If your ever over n england email me before you get here & ill treat you to Cod & chips 100 yards from where the trawlers tie up,. & a pint or two to wash it down. ;)

Actualy Just typing this has made me hungry, I was going to do a beef, onions & peppers type stir fry but Im going to nip out for good old limey fish & chips, eaten out of the paper!

mmmmmmmmm yummy

cheers,
Spiral
 
Interesting discussion. Since Dave is here I should ask his opinion of the following: My boss is very PC, and in referring to all things Eastern, I used the term "oriental", as opposed to "occidental" for Western folks.

She immediately informed me in no uncertain terms that the word "oriental" was racist and insulting. Now, I just learned than I'm not supposed to say "African-American" anymore, the new re-approved term is "Black", so really wanted to clarify this one. I have no desire to offend anyone, but thought "oriental" was acceptable.

Anyone, feel free to chime in on how you see it, and especially those of you of say "eastern" extraction.

Thanks!

Norm
 
Aardvark said:
...I'm very much afraid that the entire world is getting way too sensitive...
Click to expand...
Some are more sensitive than others. I know a guy who is half Japanese. He has a whole slew of kids and was telling me that every Christmas he gets to play "Old Saint Nip".

On the other hand, a well known radio personality started out here with a talk show on a local station. He got fired and run out of town for using the word "Chinaman".
 
Svashtar said:
...the word "oriental" was racist and insulting...
Click to expand...
My daughter, an anthropologist, wrote and lectured on that once. I don't really remember the details but the gist of it was that the term "oriental" is an archaic term which came into use in the eithteenth century when the West was just discovering the East.

It was more than a geographic reference, it implied something, foreign, exotic, and sensual which is how the west viewed the East in those days.
 
Svashtar said:
She immediately informed me in no uncertain terms that the word "oriental" was racist and insulting. Now, I just learned than I'm not supposed to say "African-American" anymore, the new re-approved term is "Black", so really wanted to clarify this one. I have no desire to offend anyone, but thought "oriental" was acceptable.
Thanks!

Norm
Click to expand...

I've been told that "rugs are oriental. People are Asian". I'm not really an expert on what different people like to be called though. I live in a very white part of the state where both Black and Hispanic populations are well under average. I think it'll come down to how offended a person wants to be. If you use a term in such a manner that it objectifies an individual, then i guess anything can be viewed as an insult. I mean, when my buddy Peanut (who is black) and I are kidding around and trash talking it doesn't mean the same thing when he calls me "cracker" as when a stranger shouts it across a mall parking lot. Names don't bother me, but i do my best not to say anything that some one could take as an insult.

Jake
 
Well I think it is a thing of ones own education 8Someone will use the word "jap" in a bad context everytime, the other one will use it because it is an abbreviation. This is a bit different if someone uses it to someone familiar (if a British or American friend calls me a "Kraut" or a "Hun" smiling at me its OK.

However in Germany we are about to adopt certain manners of pc as I can see.

I saw a "chain of words" once that showed the word for "differently abled" person. I do not know if I remember everything, but it was like "crippled, invalid - disabled - handycapped - differently abled - differently challenged" there are more "chains" that develop and seem to accelerate faster and faster - because by the time everyone knows that "differently abled" means what formerly was known as "crippled" a new word has to be found...
Do you think it is always polite not to use the word everyone would understand?

Sorry - went off topic.

Andreas (The Hun)
 
Wow, Thats better, Cod chips & curry sauce! mmmmmmmmm

Anyway Dave as I was saying, if your over here sometime, we can have a bite & a beer & talk about kuks & hawks & stuff.

That would be cool, What other cutlery type weapons intrest you? or is it just kuks & hawks?

Spiral
 
Well personally I wouldn't use the shortened word for Japanese because I wouldn't want to offend any Japanese members that we have such as WrongFriend/Satoshi-San.

I do see Spiral's point and wonder if he would change the word if someone that is Japanese like WrongFriend asked him too because it was offensive to them.

There are words describing ndns that I find offensive and hurtful and I would hope that everyone here wouldn't use them because of respect for me and my feeling's. Even though some people think these words are alright too use in spite of us ndns saying they are offensive and hurtful.
Sometimes it seems the non-ndns think they know us ndns better than we know ourselves and say they are using such words out of respect for us and what we represent too them.:rolleyes:
 
Yes Yvsa ,if WrongFriend/Satoshi-San or any other Japanese forum member asked me not to say Jap because they saw it a term of hatred , I would point out I used it in the same way as I use Brit & kuk, but would say that, if they still found it offensive & couldnt realy except or understand my explanation, out of respect for thiere feelings I would type the full versian in futre.

Having Heard Dannys past tirades against the Japanese & various other things hes said recently, I choose just to explain myself & my reasoning to him, rather than let him decide how I or any other forumite should type our communications.{even if he used the please word.}

Thats just a little bit to much gameplaying PC type politics for me.

Please also bear in mind I used it {the word jap} about food & it was not aimed at an individual.

Spiral ;)
 
I am glad this conversation is not going on in Aussie, as over here we have shortened names for everyone,no one takes offense as everyone here knows it is just the Oz way, and of course a lot of our words have very different meanings in the US, The Poms (Brits) call us all sorts of things when we continually beat them on the sporting field (forget that one Rugby match Spiral!) I actually think our style helps non racism and integration in our country as all our newly arrived Aussies soon see the funny side of our idiosyncrasies and come up with their own terms of endearment!
 
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