Just got a Ontario Hell's Belle - comparison to a khukuri

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Mar 21, 2000
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I admit, some books or movies have an influence on my next purchase of a bladed weapon. Bill Bagwell's "Bowies, Big Knives, and the Best of Battle Blades" has had such an effect. I promptly bidded on a Hell's Belle factory second on Ebay and won it for a little over half the retail price of a factory first.

I won't go into detail about this knife, except to say that it has already won a place of honor amongst my bladed weaponry (my desktop, as opposed to being in a drawer somewhere). However, I disagree with Mr. Bagwell's statement that a well made bowie can chop 'nearly as well' as, or on par with, a khukuri.

I agree with much of his opinions except on that point...there is no way that this 11" long, 5/16" thick bowie knife can chop as well as a khuk! It is very light and fast and slightly blade-heavy, but not quite as blade-heavy as a khuk. It has great thrusting, slicing and back-cutting ability, but it can't beat a khuk of the same length and weight for sheer knock-em-down-dead <b>power</b>.
 
I've got to handle a couple of the Ontario Bagwell Bowies at a gun & knife show. I wish I could justify one, but with the Ontario lineup of Bowies being on the soft side per Bill Bagwell's instructions I can't see much use for them except for what they're designed for and that's not a bad thing, just means I can't justify the cost for something I wouldn't use roughly.:)
I touched on their softness on a post I made for using the steel or chakma on our khukuris as well as other knives.

On the very, very Positive side though I have to say that I hope and pray the H.I.Scagwell Style Bowie comes out as near well balanced as the Bagwell line of Ontarios Bowie's.
They're a couple of the finest Bowies I've ever had the pleasure to hold.
They both seemed to melt away in my hand and become an extension of my arm!!!!
Exactly 'What' a Bowie Knife should do IMO!!!!!!!:cool: :D :D :D

I cannot begin to imagine what one of Mr.Bagwell's handmade Bowies would feel like!!!!
I can only imagine somewhere beyond awesome, somewhere a long way beyond.......
 
You should take a look at some of Jerry Hossom's stuff. Jerry is another guy who believes that balance is what makes a good knife.

Each knife is designed to provide a specific advantage, and comparing a khukuri with one of Bagwell's bowies is a little like comparing a sword with an axe. They are simply made to be used differently.

N2S
 
Yvsa,
I've send an e mail to Uncle Bill, this morning, for a plain YCS he has in stock. I'm looking forward to the Scagel bowie to complete the Yvsa design collection.
Fausto
 
I've had my eye on Hossom's stuff for some time now. Hopefully, in the next year or so, I will be able to acquire one of his big Bowies or maybe a Duelist. I'm looking at about a 12" blade.;)
 
K,
I've handled his real stuff,our own Vince has one ,I've also handled the Ontr. & Jerry's stuff(nice guy) However there are only only a few that I want!) Wild Bill Caldwell's(he has also used his up close & personal,a VERY tough man & a friend.2)Rob Pattens(sp.)his disappears in your hand 3)Randall model #1 this I own 4)Yvsa's & Uncle knows I have already asked for one!
jim
 
Tsimi, you have taste in big knives. I once read an article by Caldwell, in which he stated that you weren't a blacksmith until you could forge a lawnmower crankshaft to within .001 of its finished shape. Having spent a good bit of my youth around a machine shop, my reaction was "Yeah, sure". A couple of years later, I handled one of his big fighters at a show, and "Yeah, sure" changed to "Ye Gods". I've lusted after one of his knives ever since. To make matters worse, he is known for the exotic woods he uses. Wild Billism is as bad as HIKV.
 
Wal.,
I have one of his combat folders,1,000,000 layers of Hobsen's Choice Dam!BILL & I ARE GOOD FRIENDS! YOU THINK HIS KNIVES ARE AWESOME(THEY ARE) YOU SHOULD SEE WHAT HE DOES WITH GUNS!You want a story about Bill & Bagwell mail me!!
jim
 
I DON'T want to get into a useless discussion of 'what is a REAL Bowie', but I would like to comment on the statement that a Bowie is not equal to a khuk in chopping power, by adding a suffix, to wit: It depends on which Bowie you're talking about.
One of my prized possessions is a 1964-era Randall 'Raymond Thorpe' Bowie. At 13"X2-1/2"X1/4", (18" OAL) and just about a pound and a half, it is far superior to any other commercial 'bowie knife' ( perhaps a hundred or more examples) that I have handled in 40 years of being a fancier of big fighting knives. I did own one 'smith-made bowie for a while that was nearly as good, but it was a one-off, and not duplicable.
The Ontario is a flashy showpiece, uncomfortable to hold, and of inferior steel. A piece of pointed re-rod would make a more useful weapon, and nearly as good a chopper and slicer. As commercial bowies go, you can do much worse than the Cold Steel model, although the truck tire handle is an abomination.
Handle one of the superb Randall Thorpe models...perhaps with a stag or micarta handle, and you will never be satisfied with anything else. More recent models may not exhibit the superb steel temper and smithing that my old one does, I don't know.
I love my khuks...for JUST chopping, they're great...maybe superior to the Thorpe Bowie....but not as versatile in thrusting, cutting and chopping alike. The temper is completely different, in line with the khukhuri's agricultural background and method of it's making.
It's no accident that the Bowie resembles the medieval falchion, as its heritage is the same and from a European tradition of making.
When deployed as they are meant to be, the Bowie in a sabre grip and the khuk in a hammer grip, they are equally effective as weapons, with the Bowie being slightly superior in thrust and cut, and the khuk in chops. I know some would disagree, but I've never found the khuk to be that 'gainly' in reverse edge grips and strikes, while the Thorpe Bowie is equally capable in either grip.
Most 'bowies' AREN'T.
MO, yours cheerfully accepted.
Ken
 
gunhou -

No discussion, but just as an item of comparison, do your Khuks include the UBE?
 
Here are some BIG knives:

Top: The Lile SlyII First Blood knife and the UBE
Bottom: The Randall Thorp Bowie and a 20" Sirupati

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Originally posted by Yvsa
I've got to handle a couple of the Ontario Bagwell Bowies at a gun & knife show. I wish I could justify one, but with the Ontario lineup of Bowies being on the soft side per Bill Bagwell's instructions I can't see much use for them except for what they're designed for and that's not a bad thing, just means I can't justify the cost for something I wouldn't use roughly.

Bagwell himself is reputed to leave his fighting bowies somewhat soft, the premise being that edge retention is less important that keeping the blade from chipping out on bone. The Ontario copies are pure fighters using what they call QS-13 steel, which by its description sounds like a cousin to AUS6.

FWIW, Bagwell will make bowies for utility use or even mixed use--I'm sure he tempers those a bit differently.
 
Originally posted by eda-koppo


Bagwell himself is reputed to leave his fighting bowies somewhat soft, the premise being that edge retention is less important that keeping the blade from chipping out on bone. The Ontario copies are pure fighters using what they call QS-13 steel, which by its description sounds like a cousin to AUS6.

FWIW, Bagwell will make bowies for utility use or even mixed use--I'm sure he tempers those a bit differently.

That was the point I was trying to make with the Ontario Bowies. The steel is done that way on purpose which, like I said, "what they're designed for and that's not a bad thing."
Personally I didn't have a problem with how they 'felt' in the hand. I can see where one might get uncomfortable if you really stabbed something hard with one, but how many times has anyone stabbed anything, let alone a soft human target?
I love the balance they have!!!!
And yes, they are definitely in the 'Fighting Bowie' class whatever that means. I have heard a lot of people talk about Bowies and what they liked in a Bowie Knife.
Some prefer the slim and trim such as the Ontario's and others prefer the broad and long.
Personally I don't care for the Randall Thorpe Bowie. I think it's an ugly knife even though it may feel and perform beautifully.
I also used to think the UBE was ugly too until I got one, may be the same way with a Randall Bowie.;)

As far as chopping with a Bowie... I made some when I was a kid that I think would have kept up with or perhaps even out performed some khukuris. One in particular I got real lucky with in that it could bite really deep and Not stick in the wood. And it was a big Bowie with a blade of about 15" or so.
I was always teased about my big knives until someone wanted to chop something down and their little German kniffensjagger or whatever it's called couldn't make the grade, yet was the finest knife in the world.
Y'all know the type that carries those kinds of knives and they don't neccessarly be German either.
They can be Joe Blows, down at the corner garage.:)

It gets frustrating for me sometimes and I know it must for Uncle Bill as well when people come here looking for a 'Real Khukuri' and then want to change something about it.
The temper being one of the things. Before I got to thinking about it I think I even asked if the tip could be made harder on the khukuris.:o,we need a dumbass smily too.;)
If it changes from the original then it is not a 'Real Khukuri' any more.
I think a knife that's made for a particular use ought to be kept for that use.
And is why I probably won't get an Ontario Bowie even if I do like them.
My little Woodscraft, 154CM Talon or Spydey Moran will do all the cuttin I need to do on anyone that pushes me that far anyway.
And it takes a lot to push me that far unless it concerns my family's safety.
We haven't needed the Bowie for many years to do what it was designed for, but I still and always will believe that anyone who wants to should be able and allowed to carry any of the Bowie's he or she wants to and anywhere they want to.
But then I believe a man ought to be able to own and shoot a Bazooka if he wanted one.:)
If the people of Nepal could do that right now there wouldn't be the problems there that they're having.

And a little known fact it seems is that the Afghani people were also disarmed by the powers that were.
Seems as if they ain't no more.:)
 
Personally I don't care for the Randall Thorpe Bowie. I think it's an ugly knife even though it may feel and perform beautifully.

YVSA,

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but once you pick one of these up it can be very hard to put down. The Randall Thorp Bowie has that all ellusive quality of balance that makes the thing feel much smaller and livelier than you would expect from a blade this size.

It probably couldn't hold a candle to something like the UBE or YCS in wood chopping, but it is a very sweat all around knife that would be much easier on the arm for the lighter trail clearing role. Then again the Sirupati shown in the picture would probably do just as well and feel nearly as good. It's good to have a choices.

n2s
 
<blockquote>
I DON'T want to get into a useless discussion of 'what is a REAL Bowie', but I would like to comment on the statement that a Bowie is not equal to a khuk in chopping power, by adding a suffix, to wit: It depends on which Bowie you're talking about.
</blockquote>

Oh I know better than to declare one bowie design to be superior to all others, and therefore it must be a 'real' bowie. I was just stating that I liked my Ontario Hell's Belle for what it was designed to do - namely, to be a fighter. Doubtlessly there were other bowies designed for other tasks - fighting/work, or purely for work.

<blockquote>
One of my prized possessions is a 1964-era Randall 'Raymond Thorpe' Bowie. At 13"X2-1/2"X1/4", (18" OAL) and just about a pound and a half, it is far superior to any other commercial 'bowie knife' ( perhaps a hundred or more examples) that I have handled in 40 years of being a fancier of big fighting knives. I did own one 'smith-made bowie for a while that was nearly as good, but it was a one-off, and not duplicable.
</blockquote>

I don't doubt your word that your bowie is of a far better quality than any other bowie you've handled. After all, you're the one who has handled all those knives. I, on the other hand, have had experience with only one bowie...my Hell's Belle.

<blockquote>
The Ontario is a flashy showpiece, uncomfortable to hold, and of inferior steel. A piece of pointed re-rod would make a more useful weapon, and nearly as good a chopper and slicer. As commercial bowies go, you can do much worse than the Cold Steel model, although the truck tire handle is an abomination.
</blockquote>

Here is where I disagree. My particular Hell's Belle, even though it is a factory second, feels good in either hand and is very light for its size. I believe it has a very clean, slim look...which appeals to me. I would have picked a walnut handle instead of laminated pakkawood, either works fine.

The blade is mirror polished, which I also like. I think it is 'flashy' in a good sense of the word and is different from a gaudy 'flashy', if you know what I mean. Besides, you could use the highly polished blade to reflect sunlight in the other guy's eyes. I really like the balance on my knife and the knife just feels 'there'. That is, it doesn't feel too blade heavy or too handle heavy.

I don't know anything about QS-13 but I do know that the hardness is around 52-53 RC and the reason for that is because the goal here is to have a tough blade that will resist chipping and snapping at the expense of edge retention. I fully agree with that design philosophy...all of my European swords are in the same RC range for the exact same reason. A Riding Sword that is 59 RC for its full length would have a tendency to snap during combat and leave the swordsman up a certain creek without a paddle.

As for the CS bowie, I agree that a Kraton handle is unacceptable. However the CS bowie was probably made for more general usage and not purely for fighting, as the Ontario Hell's Belle was. I think you can compare them as far as the type of knife category that they belong to, but comparing them application-wise would not be fair.

<blockquote>
Handle one of the superb Randall Thorpe models...perhaps with a stag or micarta handle, and you will never be satisfied with anything else. More recent models may not exhibit the superb steel temper and smithing that my old one does, I don't know.
</blockquote>

If I ever do get the chance to do so, I will surely have a lot more experience and information from which to make a more informed judgement on bowie knives.

Keep in mind, however, that I paid only $120 USD for this Ontario Hell's Belle, which retails at an astronomical $250+ brand new. I believe that I got my money's worth. Now, if I were to shell out more for a Randall Thorpe bowie, I would certainly expect to get a knife of much better quality than the Ontario Hell's Belle.

<blockquote>
When deployed as they are meant to be, the Bowie in a sabre grip and the khuk in a hammer grip, they are equally effective as weapons, with the Bowie being slightly superior in thrust and cut, and the khuk in chops. I know some would disagree, but I've never found the khuk to be that 'gainly' in reverse edge grips and strikes, while the Thorpe Bowie is equally capable in either grip.
</blockquote>

I would say that any good bowie, compared to any good khuk, is far superior in the thrust and perhaps slightly better in the slicing department. Likewise, I would also say that any good khuk, as long as it is in the same length range of the bowie it is being compared to, is superior in chopping strokes and perhaps slightly inferior when it comes to slices.

Anyhow, musings on battle-worthiness aside, I just don't see how a straight blade like the bowie can generate as much as or more chopping power than a khukuri with a similarly sized blade. It's just the way the blades were designed...trade off one feature for another. In the bowie's case, I think the aim was to make a knife that could do it all whereas in the khuk's case, the objective was to make a knife that has no peers in the chopping department at the expense of thrusting and backcutting ability.

Just my opinion...
 
I don't have a UBE...it is an interesting-looking variation, which my GS resembles slightly. If it had been available when I bought my GS, the choice would have been harder.
My Thorpe Bowie has an ivory hilt, and my Sirupati is horn-handled, otherwise my knives are ringers for the second pic posted by n2s.
Kmark I'm glad you like the Belle bowie. It's certainly fancy and flashy enough to satisfy anyone's appetite for that. I like a fighting knife that has more weight in the blade, to facilitate the snap-thrust Styers technique.
The Thorpe, by comparison, is rather ugly...the polish isn't great, there are forging marks still visible after 35 years of oiling, buffing and cleaning with mild abrasives (I have used the knife regularly, it's not a wall hanger)
Randall's old Swedish Dannemora tool steel, tempered properly, is nearly unbeatable in cutting power, but you could still lever up a Buick with the blade. The 1/4" stock in this knife gives a good bevel and strength while still making a long light knife that is alive in the hand. Balance of all factors=superiority, IMO.
I wasn't recommending Cold Steels Trailmaster, necessarily. It's just the best bowie -type knife *in that price range* that I've come across. Carbon V ain't forged tool, but it's pretty good at holding an edge, and in the thickness found in the CS knife, plenty strong. I've had an opportunity to check the CS owned by a pro fisherman, who beats it pretty badly...it's a mess, but has held up. Hard to sharpen, with the rolled edge...I took a Lansky to it and gave it a secondary bevel that holds really well and is aggressive as needed on flesh.
 
You can get bowies that penetrate as well, or better even that khukuri. However they will bind to a much greater extent for the exact same reason that the penetration is so high - the blade geomtery is very slim. A khukuri approaches chopping from a very different perspective, you don't go for a minimal blade profile, but seek to optomize the performance of a larger one.

For example, chopping in small soft woods, my 18" Ang Khola cuts deep enough so that the entire blade passes below the cut line, however it can be easily drawn out because the blade doesn't bind due to the combination of convex / hollow / convex geometry. My Battle Mistress does't get quite that level of penetration (about 25-35% less), but at that level of penetration it can bind to the extent that I have to bang it out with a piece of wood.

There are also issues of long term useage such as wrist strain and fatigue which the khukuri has advantages in. As well the overall level of strength and durability is much greater obviously just due to the huge increase in cross section.

Of course there there are lots of blades that are very inbetween a khukuri and a bowie, and what exactly defines a bowie is not exactly rigid anyway. A bowie with a strong handle drop for example is very khukuri like. I have a couple of khukuri-like blades that chop very well, in the same class of the khukuris from HI, because they have very similar design elements. Here are a couple with my 18" AK and BM for reference :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/al_bolo_bm_pab_ak_side.jpg

-Cliff
 
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