Just how expensive are premium steels?

[Swedge]

I just recently got a Kershaw JYD II with composite blade (great knife, btw), which has a D2 edge mated with stainless steel to form a blade. I am given to understand that this keeps Kershaw from having to bear the cost of the entire blade being made of D2 steel. This got me to wondering about the cost of premium steels.

How much of the cost of a knife that uses premium steel is attributable to the premium steel?

 

[Phillip Dobson]

Check out knifemaking sites like alphaknifesupply.com to see prices on various bar stock. I think that the biggest cost increase on these "super steels" is due to it's difficulty to work with. Some of these new steels eat up abrasives (and time).

I'm not sure how much Kershaw saves on CB blades, but I doubt is too much. I'd say it's mostly for looks. Unless huge quantities are made, it would be hard to justify the cost of equipment.

 

[Josh K]

Check out knifemaking sites like alphaknifesupply.com to see prices on various bar stock. I think that the biggest cost increase on these "super steels" is due to it's difficulty to work with. Some of these new steels eat up abrasives (and time).

I'm not sure how much Kershaw saves on CB blades, but I doubt is too much. I'd say it's mostly for looks. Unless huge quantities are made, it would be hard to justify the cost of equipment.

The wear and tear on machinery is where the true cost lies. But like he said, checkout supply sites or pick up a phone and call.

 

[DennisStrickland]

the labor to make combo blades; has to be more than steel cost.kershaw is b.s. ing. bought jyd ,lot marked jan.99.edge was c.p.m.d2.like all the kershaws i've owned since 80's;edge holding was only average.did a lot of cardboard cutting tests in the last week.busse i'st\ custom o6 hunter 2'nd/ benchmade 710 d2 3'rd .kershaw a very distant last.i believe kershaw uses premium metals but heat treat is not the best.

 

[2brothers]

How much of the cost of a knife that uses premium steel is attributable to the premium steel?

As Thomas has mentioned before, it all has to do with the project they're working on.

As to CB technology and cost savings, it’s true that it can save up to 30% depending on the project.

the labor to make combo blades; has to be more than steel cost.kershaw is b.s. ing. bought jyd ,lot marked jan.99.edge was c.p.m.d2.like all the kershaws i've owned since 80's;edge holding was only average.did a lot of cardboard cutting tests in the last week.busse i'st\ custom o6 hunter 2'nd/ benchmade 710 d2 3'rd .kershaw a very distant last.i believe kershaw uses premium metals but heat treat is not the best.

From what I can make out of this incoherent post is that you think
Kershaw is dishonest about CB blades being cheaper than just using a slab of steel.
Is that correct?
I'd like to know which company you work for that puts out CB blades.
We would love to see the cost data you have to make that assumption.

CPM-D2 blade from Jan of 99?
I'd like to see that one.

mike

 

[SPXTrader]

the labor to make combo blades; has to be more than steel cost.kershaw is b.s. ing. bought jyd ,lot marked jan.99.edge was c.p.m.d2.like all the kershaws i've owned since 80's;edge holding was only average.did a lot of cardboard cutting tests in the last week.busse i'st\ custom o6 hunter 2'nd/ benchmade 710 d2 3'rd .kershaw a very distant last.i believe kershaw uses premium metals but heat treat is not the best.

I'll buy that CPM-D2 JYD marked Jan 99, if that's what you're saying you have.

Please post a pic of it.

And the cost issues have been addressed today in another thread.

 

[SOLEIL]

I just recently got a Kershaw JYD II with composite blade (great knife, btw), which has a D2 edge mated with stainless steel to form a blade. I am given to understand that this keeps Kershaw from having to bear the cost of the entire blade being made of D2 steel. This got me to wondering about the cost of premium steels.

How much of the cost of a knife that uses premium steel is attributable to the premium steel?

D2 steel is not an expensive steel. CPM D2 is more expensive but also has better properties than regular D2. Kershaw is the only production knife manufacturer to offer a variety of CB blades at a high quality, low price point. CB blades gives Kershaw the opportunity to produce a custom standard knife at production prices. Kershaw has done this in many cases, not just CB blades, to satisfy their customer base. The initial cost of procurement, setup and training is probably offset by the quantity that can be produced in a timely manner. Kershaw has been around a long time. They are very innovative and competitive.

the labor to make combo blades; has to be more than steel cost.Kershaw is b.s. ing. bought jyd ,lot marked jan.99.edge was c.p.m.d2.like all the Kershaw i've owned since 80's;edge holding was only average.did a lot of cardboard cutting tests in the last week.busse i'st\ custom o6 hunter 2'nd/ benchmade 710 d2 3'rd .Kershaw a very distant last.i believe Kershaw uses premium metals but heat treat is not the best.

Dennis, you need to read more and post less. You obviously have something against Kershaw in general and your statements are without merit. Your cutting tests are comparing apples to oranges and have no relation to HT. I own knives from every major knife manufacturer and have never had problems that I would associate with HT. Most edge holding problems can be corrected by proper sharpening. To say that a companies entire line of knives has poor edge holding capabilities due to HT is very myopic. Your JYD II CB is probably stamped Jan 09, Kershaw was not making CB blades in 99.

 

[orthogonal1]

You obviously have something against Kershaw in general and your statements are without merit.

Sadly, it could be said your response is probably based upon favoritism toward Kershaw.

DennisStrickland - You're concerns as to cost savings appear reasonable - materials are often cited as the least expense in the production of knives. Based upon Thomas W's words at the instant, it appears that any cost savings per unit is minimal at this time. The "composite" technology is relatively new as applied to knives, though, so give such savings some time to mature.

SOLIEL does have a point concerning the cutting test comparison of different steels equating to inferior heat treatment. Different steels have different properties and perform differently.


Back to topic, wouldn't Mastiff have a good idea of relative steel costs of the premium steels?

 

[Swedge]

a custom standard knife

I'm a bit confused by this combination of "custom" and "standard." Please elaborate.

And does Kershaw make the composite blades for cost or looks? Actually looks was one of the reasons I decided to try the knife. But I thought that the composite blade was a cost-savings measure.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

the labor to make combo blades; has to be more than steel cost.kershaw is b.s. ing. bought jyd ,lot marked jan.99.edge was c.p.m.d2.like all the kershaws i've owned since 80's;edge holding was only average.did a lot of cardboard cutting tests in the last week.busse i'st\ custom o6 hunter 2'nd/ benchmade 710 d2 3'rd .kershaw a very distant last.i believe kershaw uses premium metals but heat treat is not the best.

the jan.99 comment is probably a typo.

wasn't the junkyard dog released 2-3 years ago? and wasn't cpm d2 first manufactured about 2 years ago?

in any event, his post still makes no sense.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I'm a bit confused by this combination of "custom" and "standard." Please elaborate.

And does Kershaw make the composite blades for cost or looks? Actually looks was one of the reasons I decided to try the knife. But I thought that the composite blade was a cost-savings measure.

i would think there are significant costs associated with combining the two metals which would offset the savings in using a less expensive steel for the spine.

like differential heat treating, you get a knife with a harder edge for retention, and a softer spine for impact resisitance.

 

[SOLEIL]

Sadly, it could be said your response is probably based upon favoritism toward Kershaw.

Not really, although I hold Kershaw in high regard as I do with Buck, Benchmade, Spyderco, Queen etc. Dennis has made these same statements in the past about Kershaw this and that including the HT.

I'm a bit confused by this combination of "custom" and "standard." Please elaborate.

And does Kershaw make the composite blades for cost or looks? Actually looks was one of the reasons I decided to try the knife. But I thought that the composite blade was a cost-savings measure.

My apologies, bad choice of terms. Custom to me is from a individual knife maker. In relation to Kershaw being Onion, Galyean, Hawk, Martin and others. Standard to me is a knife made by a company or manufacturer. My reference was to making a standard production knife that is close to custom materials and F&F at a fraction of the cost. I really don't know why they did it. I was hoping that this technology would become affordable outside of the custom realm for a long time. Kershaw probably did it for both reasons. Make something unique and affordable that people like but still make your bottom line.

 

[antonio_luiz]

I am given to understand that this keeps Kershaw from having to bear the cost of the entire blade being made of D2 steel.

Don't know who told you this - D2 isn't that expensive and if you think about it, the cladding process should add to cost, not reduce it. Steel is usually clad for 2 reasons

1) D2 being a high carbon tool steel rather than a true stainless steel it can get rusty. The stainless cladding is to protect the D2 core from rust, not to save cost.

2) The san mai laminate is also used to increase the strength of a knife by sandwiching a hard but more brittle core between softer, tougher steels. This technique has been developed independently by the Japanese and the Scandinavians

Premium alloy steels can get pricey because of: the rarity & cost of the exotic Elements added; the special techniques used to get a homogenous mix in the billet; extra care required in shaping the knife and the extra time and steps needed for proper heat treating, tempering and cryogenic treatment.

 

[Swedge]

the cladding process should add to cost, not reduce it.

Just to clarify, the JYD II CB is not clad. The D2 is fit into the stainless steel like a jigsaw puzzle piece. The two are joined together with a paste that I understand to be copper-based and then fused.

I don't recall where I've gotten all this information, but I'm pretty sure I got it off the internet, which means it should be right!

 

[tjsulli790]

Don't know who told you this - D2 isn't that expensive and if you think about it, the cladding process should add to cost, not reduce it. Steel is usually clad for 2 reasons

1) D2 being a high carbon tool steel rather than a true stainless steel it can get rusty. The stainless cladding is to protect the D2 core from rust, not to save cost.

2) The san mai laminate is also used to increase the strength of a knife by sandwiching a hard but more brittle core between softer, tougher steels. This technique has been developed independently by the Japanese and the Scandinavians

Premium alloy steels can get pricey because of: the rarity & cost of the exotic Elements added; the special techniques used to get a homogenous mix in the billet; extra care required in shaping the knife and the extra time and steps needed for proper heat treating, tempering and cryogenic treatment.

The composite blades in question use CPM-D2 not just D2. And Kershaw's composite blades are not laminated, it's literally one type of steel for the cutting edge that is formed/"welded" (I really don't know what to call it) to another type of steel for the rest of the blade.

 

[rbmcmjr]

Just to clarify, the JYD II CB is not clad. The D2 is fit into the stainless steel like a jigsaw puzzle piece. The two are joined together with a paste that I understand to be copper-based and then fused.

I don't recall where I've gotten all this information, but I'm pretty sure I got it off the internet, which means it should be right!

You are correct. They look like this prior to bonding:

 

[DennisStrickland]

the jan.99 should have 09 my cutting tests ,use cardboard rated from 175 lbs. to 225@250 lbs. burst strengh.they are starting to use new ratings on some boxes;called the edge crush test.factors for myself in testing. bevel.length ofblade, thickness of blade same weight cardboard.i try to get each edge so it shaves leg hair easily.cut across the tubes@ you get much more resistance.use a clock ,write begain @stop times/when blade stops shaving hair.cardboard is hard on edges ,has lots of resins.i have seen high $ knives which would'nt perform as well as a moderate factory blade.in 80's my brother let me test t.m.dowell interframe. 3.75 in.long cut about 4/5 minutes.this knife sold between4@500$. a case'factory c.v.steel ;cost about 28$ it equaled time of t.m.dowell. since 1974 i've tested hundreds; maybe thousands. our results on deer and hogs coralate with field durations.o6 blade '61 r.w. gut@skin 3 deer//still shave.




2

 

[Swedge]

Thanks for the photos Rick

From the Kershaw website for the JYD II CB:

Steel: Sandvik 13C26/CPM-D2 composite two-tone stainless-steel with copper accent

 

[orthogonal1]

Sentences always help, as does common written English practice, such as the use of capital letters to start a sentence.

One should not need too much time to interpret what another is trying to get accross.

Enough grammar critique.

Yes, I agree that based simply on cutting performance many custom knives are "overpriced". But customs are not valued solely based upon that criteria.

But what does this have to do with the topic at hand?

 

[antonio_luiz]

The composite blades in question use CPM-D2 not just D2. And Kershaw's composite blades are not laminated, it's literally one type of steel for the cutting edge that is formed/"welded" (I really don't know what to call it) to another type of steel for the rest of the blade.

Thank you for pointing out that the core steel is the more expensive CPM-D2 but irrespective of the process used to bond the steels this is still a laminated blade = layered. I presume you meant to say that this was not a true san mai blade because the layers were not hammer forge-welded, but many laminated blades these days aren't. I forgot to add that the other reason for producing laminated blades was for the aesthetics.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=...Pp1dmHCA&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title