Just how expensive are premium steels?

No, it's not a laminate. As I mentioned above, and as the photos indicate, the two metal parts are fitted together (like the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle). It's not "a layered structure." It is not a "joining together [of] thin layers." Take a look at the photos rbmcmjr posted.
 
antonio_luiz said:
Thank you for pointing out that the core steel is the more expensive CPM-D2 but irrespective of the process used to bond the steels this is still a laminated blade = layered. I presume you meant to say that this was not a true san mai blade because the layers were not hammer forge-welded, but many laminated blades these days aren't. I forgot to add that the other reason for producing laminated blades was for the aesthetics.

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=...Pp1dmHCA&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
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No, I don't think these Kershaw blades are considered "laminated" as used in the knife world. The laminated blades have the metal layered generally parallel to the plane of the edge. Its not the process of affixing the steels together, it is the general direction of the steel layers that is at issue. That is the construction most envision when the term "laminated" is used.

I don't like the term "composite" either. People think of fiber-glass and such.

How about "stratified", since Kershaw could use the technology with three or more steels - that'd look cool, eh? Or "bimetallic interlocked bonded construction"?

Oops, forgot to add that one should be careful when using terms like "san mai" in the forums, since there are those here who will happily inform you that you have mis-used such.
 
Swedge said:
I just recently got a Kershaw JYD II with composite blade (great knife, btw), which has a D2 edge mated with stainless steel to form a blade. I am given to understand that this keeps Kershaw from having to bear the cost of the entire blade being made of D2 steel. This got me to wondering about the cost of premium steels.

How much of the cost of a knife that uses premium steel is attributable to the premium steel?
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I doubt anyone can be certain how much the cost is attributable to the cost of steel, premium or not. That is unless you are part of the organisation and are in charge of purchasing, costing or they are part of the design team. I also doubt Kershaw purchases their steel at the prices that are listed on those knife supply stores, they probably get a much better deal direct from Sandvik and CPM. I do however think the JYDII CB is an amazing bang for the buck. Even if they made any cost saving I'm sure the welding process and the cost in rejects costs quite a bit as it is one more process that can go wrong. For around USD70 you get a well designed knife, with good steel and G10 handles. Now, I'm a Spyderco fan but you'd have to pay more if you wanted something similar from them (good steel and G10). Maybe Kershaw have managed to get their manufacturing processes more efficient than other makers.

I'm no steel snob... I don't do test cuts and such but so far my knife has handled normal day to day use fine and that CB looks very very sweet. Congrats on a great purchase. :thumbup:
 
DennisStrickland said:
the jan.99 should have 09 my cutting tests ,use cardboard rated from 175 lbs. to 225@250 lbs. burst strengh.they are starting to use new ratings on some boxes;called the edge crush test.factors for myself in testing. bevel.length ofblade, thickness of blade same weight cardboard.i try to get each edge so it shaves leg hair easily.cut across the tubes@ you get much more resistance.use a clock ,write begain @stop times/when blade stops shaving hair.cardboard is hard on edges ,has lots of resins.i have seen high $ knives which would'nt perform as well as a moderate factory blade.in 80's my brother let me test t.m.dowell interframe. 3.75 in.long cut about 4/5 minutes.this knife sold between4@500$. a case'factory c.v.steel ;cost about 28$ it equaled time of t.m.dowell. since 1974 i've tested hundreds; maybe thousands. our results on deer and hogs coralate with field durations.o6 blade '61 r.w. gut@skin 3 deer//still shave.




2
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Please use spell check.

I agree with Josh K, grinding 420HC will put less wear on grinding machines than grinding CPM-S90V which will eat up grinding belts, especially when grinding and sharpening after the heat treatment is done.
 
the welding process
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Again, I'm not completely reliable on this, but my understanding is that the parts are not welded but are fused together by the copper-based material and heat. Welding would be much more labor-intensive. I say this not to pick nits but to avoid confusing others who are not familiar with the knife.

And, yes, IMO, it's an amazing bang for the buck. Very comfortable in the hand. And who can complain about a D2 edge on a knife blade?
 
I would expect the joint to be made with a furnace brazing process. I don't know about further heat treat, but some brazing alloys get use at fairly high temp
 
MORIMOTOM said:
the jan.99 comment is probably a typo.

wasn't the junkyard dog released 2-3 years ago? and wasn't cpm d2 first manufactured about 2 years ago?

in any event, his post still makes no sense.[/QUOTE
i apologize for my poor grammer @ spelling. years back when i was working for anaconda copper@ making large electrical cable;i was told to take a sample to the testing lab.the sign on wall of lab said;one test is worth more than a thousand opinions.i have no vendetta against kershaw.many of my friends are serious hunters @ working ranchers.we use discuss@ discuss knives all the time.if a blade wo'nt field dress @ skin 3 deer@ still shave hair;we retire same.i do'nt have a dicitionry, ca'nt type.do'nt know how to make capital letters.however; until you guys start cutting cardboard against the clock; you
might be surprised at blade performace.steels i have used follows l6,1095 ,01,06, 420@440 series'154,d2,3 types of hand forged damacus,440 cpm v,vg10,vg1,aus 6, aus 8,8cr13,9cr13,g2,old english double ke forged shear steel,m2,dendritic colbalt,a.t.s.34,s30v.do,nt want to fight with you guys;exspressing my opinions on a lifetime of cutting. also i do'nt put a hammer to the back of my blades
Click to expand...
 
DennisStrickland said:
i apologize for my poor grammer @ spelling. years back when i was working for anaconda copper@ making large electrical cable;i was told to take a sample to the testing lab.the sign on wall of lab said;one test is worth more than a thousand opinions.i have no vendetta against kershaw.many of my friends are serious hunters @ working ranchers.we use discuss@ discuss knives all the time.if a blade wo'nt field dress @ skin 3 deer@ still shave hair;we retire same.i do'nt have a dicitionry, ca'nt type.do'nt know how to make capital letters.however; until you guys start cutting cardboard against the clock; you
might be surprised at blade performace.steels i have used follows l6,1095 ,01,06, 420@440 series'154,d2,3 types of hand forged damacus,440 cpm v,vg10,vg1,aus 6, aus 8,8cr13,9cr13,g2,old english double ke forged shear steel,m2,dendritic colbalt,a.t.s.34,s30v.do,nt want to fight with you guys;exspressing my opinions on a lifetime of cutting. also i do'nt put a hammer to the back of my blades
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@=at. not and.

As good as one test may be in comparison to 1000 opinions, a test is worthless if it is impossible to decipher the results.

Of course, the "test" you used is inherently flawed being that you in no way standardized the edges. "i try to get each edge so it shaves leg hair easily" is a completely irrelevant statement.

Also quite frankly, being able to skin or gut 3 deer without losing a shaving edge is about as scientifically relevant as hitting a blade with a hammer to test it's edge retention.
 
Based on the pictures, I'd guess that Kershaw either laser cuts or wire EDMs the shapes, brazes them together in an oven, then grinds them. If they cut all of their blade shapes out with the same machine, the cost for the extra profiling would be insignificant compared to a moderate difference in the steel cost. I doubt the copper paste application and oven time adds much, especially since they'll grind the joint smooth with the rest of the blade anyways.

Regardless of all that, at the end of the day the "cool factor" from the bimetallic blade and resultant sales are without a doubt worth more than any production cost differences.
 
Great link, Knarfeng.

I agree that brazing is probably the method, and I am suspecting that the filler metal is probably some copper alloy.

Based on the discussion on that website, joining the D2 to the SS is probably not all that expensive.
 
A key point that no one is factoring in is economy of scale.

Kershaw is a very large knife manufacturer, even if you do not factor in Kai.

They can buy their steel in quantities that other manufacturers can't even hope to use.
When they do a run of composite blades it isn't just a hundred or two, it can run into the thousands.

To the end user or custom knife maker the price difference between a 14C28N and any of the and any of the higher end steels may not seem that significant, but if you are buying enough of a new steel to have it exclusively for a while, there will probably be a fairly significant savings on the 14C28N, making it worthwhile to use a significantly smaller piece of high end steel for the edge.
 
"Economy of scale" is already factored in.

We are dealing with one maker and the issue is whether knife A, with a homogeneous blade, is cheaper to make than knife A+B, the same knife with a "composite" blade.

Same buying power, same methods of manufacture, same etc.
 
orthogonal1 said:
"Economy of scale" is already factored in.

We are dealing with one maker and the issue is whether knife A, with a homogeneous blade, is cheaper to make than knife A+B, the same knife with a "composite" blade.

Same buying power, same methods of manufacture, same etc.
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$ Steel X > $ Steel Y

$ Knife A w/Blade Steel X > $ Knife B w/Blade Steel X+Y > $ Knife C w/Blade Steel Y

I think this is a better representation of the issue.

My point was previously, the bigger the cost differential between the premium exotic steel and the spine steel, the more likely that with all production costs factored in, the composite blade will be cheaper than the premium only blade. Kershaw is probably one of the few companies that can buy enough of the spine steel to make the cost differential between the steels a worthwhile contribution to the savings in making the composite blades. Also the smaller the piece of premium steel the bigger the cost savings, so the particular design will be a factor in this.


On the other hand I suppose you and Thomas already answered this, I really should refresh more often. :D
 
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