David Martin
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Fuller groove is the correct term. Just like a bare butt knife as the precedence for that term was set in the early 1800's. DM
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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Just picked up 120!
- Thread starter BIG45-70
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BG42EDGE
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I don't know. Maybe somebody else can answer that. The wood is absolutely beautiful, though!
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"What is a Blood Groove For?
The blood groove on a knife probably is derived from the channel present on swords, where it
is called a "fuller". There are some persistent myths floating around
about the function of blood grooves, from "releases the vacuum when
the knife is thrust into a person" to "no functional use, purely
decorative". Let's talk about these wrong answers first, before we
talk about the right answers.
Wrong Answer #1: Releasing the Body Suction
Basically, this theory postulates that the blood groove is present to
facilitate withdrawing the knife from a person/animal. In this
scenario, it is said that the animal's muscles contract around the
knife blade, and that this causes a vacuum, which makes the knife
difficult to withdraw. But on a knife with a blood groove, blood runs
through the blood groove and breaks the suction, so the knife can be
withdrawn with less difficulty.
One problem is that there's no evidence that this suction ever really
happens. Also, over and over again people report that there is no
difference whatsoever in the difficulty of withdrawing a knife with a
blood groove vs. one without. This is one theory that has been tested
and found wanting.
Yes, I realize you may have heard this myth from your deadly knife
instructor, or read it in a book somewhere. But the experts agree
that it is false. If your knife can cut its way in, it can just as
easily cut its way out, with or without a blood groove.
And with that, I am going to change terminology from "blood groove" to
"fuller", since we all now know the so-called "blood groove" is not
playing a blood-channeling function.
Wrong Answer #2: Purely Decorative
There is a grain of truth to this one. Although a fuller does play a
functional role, on a short knife the effect might be so small as to
be insignificant. Many believe the fuller plays a strictly decorative
role on knives or swords under 2 feet long. As the knife or sword
gets bigger, the fuller plays an increasingly important role. On
smaller knives, it is indeed probably just decorative.
RIGHT ANSWERS:
Okay, so what substantive role does the blood groove/fuller play? The
bottom line is, it does two things:
1. It stiffens the blade
2. It lightens the blade
That first statment has been the subject of some controversy, with
some people sending me equations purporting to show that the removal
of material cannot make the blade stiffer. I will table for now the
question of "does the blade get stiffer, in some absolute sense, due
to the fuller?" Rather, I'll weaken the claim to say that the blade
*feels* stiffer to the user who is waving it around -- because it's
stiffer for its weight.
I'll reproduce a post by Jim Hrisoulas which lays things out clearly
(re-printed with permission):
When you fuller a blade you do several things:
1: You lighten it by using less material, as the act of forging in the
fuller actually widens the blade, so you use less material than you
would if you forged an unfullered blade. (In stock removal the blade
would also be lighter, as you would be removing the material instead
of leaving it there).
2: You stiffen the blade. In an unfullered blade, you only have a
"single" center spine. This is especially true in terms of the
flattened diamond cross section common to most unfullered double-
edged blades. This cross section would be rather "whippy" on a
blade that is close to three feet long. Fullering produces two
"spines" on the blade, one on each side of the fuller where the
edge bevels come in contact with the fuller. This stiffens the
blade, and the difference between a non-fullered blade and a
fullered one is quite remarkable.
Fullers on knives do the same thing, although on a smaller blade the
effects are not as easily seen or felt. Actually looking at fullers
from an engineering point of view they really are a sophisticated
forging technique, and it was the fullered swordblade that pointed the
way to modern "I" beam construction.
When combined with proper distal tapers, proper heat treating and
tempering, a fullered blade will, without a doubt, be anywhere from
20% to 35% lighter than a non-fullered blade without any sacrifice of
strength or blade integrity.
Fullers were not "blood grooves" or there to "break the suction" or
for some other grisly purpose. They served a very important
structural function."
The blood groove on a knife probably is derived from the channel present on swords, where it
is called a "fuller". There are some persistent myths floating around
about the function of blood grooves, from "releases the vacuum when
the knife is thrust into a person" to "no functional use, purely
decorative". Let's talk about these wrong answers first, before we
talk about the right answers.
Wrong Answer #1: Releasing the Body Suction
Basically, this theory postulates that the blood groove is present to
facilitate withdrawing the knife from a person/animal. In this
scenario, it is said that the animal's muscles contract around the
knife blade, and that this causes a vacuum, which makes the knife
difficult to withdraw. But on a knife with a blood groove, blood runs
through the blood groove and breaks the suction, so the knife can be
withdrawn with less difficulty.
One problem is that there's no evidence that this suction ever really
happens. Also, over and over again people report that there is no
difference whatsoever in the difficulty of withdrawing a knife with a
blood groove vs. one without. This is one theory that has been tested
and found wanting.
Yes, I realize you may have heard this myth from your deadly knife
instructor, or read it in a book somewhere. But the experts agree
that it is false. If your knife can cut its way in, it can just as
easily cut its way out, with or without a blood groove.
And with that, I am going to change terminology from "blood groove" to
"fuller", since we all now know the so-called "blood groove" is not
playing a blood-channeling function.
Wrong Answer #2: Purely Decorative
There is a grain of truth to this one. Although a fuller does play a
functional role, on a short knife the effect might be so small as to
be insignificant. Many believe the fuller plays a strictly decorative
role on knives or swords under 2 feet long. As the knife or sword
gets bigger, the fuller plays an increasingly important role. On
smaller knives, it is indeed probably just decorative.
RIGHT ANSWERS:
Okay, so what substantive role does the blood groove/fuller play? The
bottom line is, it does two things:
1. It stiffens the blade
2. It lightens the blade
That first statment has been the subject of some controversy, with
some people sending me equations purporting to show that the removal
of material cannot make the blade stiffer. I will table for now the
question of "does the blade get stiffer, in some absolute sense, due
to the fuller?" Rather, I'll weaken the claim to say that the blade
*feels* stiffer to the user who is waving it around -- because it's
stiffer for its weight.
I'll reproduce a post by Jim Hrisoulas which lays things out clearly
(re-printed with permission):
When you fuller a blade you do several things:
1: You lighten it by using less material, as the act of forging in the
fuller actually widens the blade, so you use less material than you
would if you forged an unfullered blade. (In stock removal the blade
would also be lighter, as you would be removing the material instead
of leaving it there).
2: You stiffen the blade. In an unfullered blade, you only have a
"single" center spine. This is especially true in terms of the
flattened diamond cross section common to most unfullered double-
edged blades. This cross section would be rather "whippy" on a
blade that is close to three feet long. Fullering produces two
"spines" on the blade, one on each side of the fuller where the
edge bevels come in contact with the fuller. This stiffens the
blade, and the difference between a non-fullered blade and a
fullered one is quite remarkable.
Fullers on knives do the same thing, although on a smaller blade the
effects are not as easily seen or felt. Actually looking at fullers
from an engineering point of view they really are a sophisticated
forging technique, and it was the fullered swordblade that pointed the
way to modern "I" beam construction.
When combined with proper distal tapers, proper heat treating and
tempering, a fullered blade will, without a doubt, be anywhere from
20% to 35% lighter than a non-fullered blade without any sacrifice of
strength or blade integrity.
Fullers were not "blood grooves" or there to "break the suction" or
for some other grisly purpose. They served a very important
structural function."
BG42EDGE
BANNED
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110Dave (who else could it be?) said:
You do have a point there, Dave......OOPS!!
I said "point".....that sounds a bit dangerous.....like it might produce anxiety in those knife-haters who wear lace on their panties.
Gosh.....I wonder what other words we should quit using?
Hmmmm.....
Sharp? Sounds scary and dangerous to living creatures. Let's call it....."finely beveled."
(Sharpening thus becomes "beveling.")
Cut? Oh.....that's gotta go, too. Maybe we can say "incise" instead?
Gut a deer? Oh dear, Bambi. Remember to say "field dress."
Stab? Obviously, that's got to go. We'll just pretend there's never any stabbing. Sticking is out, too. Poke might work.
Chop? Well, maybe only in conjunction with "sticks" or "karate."
Slash? Clearly, only a psychopath would use such a word.
Edge? Idunno......seems to imply that cutting......er, oops.....incising, might be involved (which could lead to our pre-banned word......BLOOD).
Knife? Sounds DAMNED dangerous and aggressive.....like a thing that could be used for stabbing or cutting or slashing or gutting. People even use it as an action word......"A woman got KNIFED last night outside a bar." Picture her lying in a pool of ....... blood .......Enough to make a girly-man shudder and involuntarily make a puddle!
Maybe "Personal Incising Tool" instead of "knife?"
Blade? Can't use that.....sounds too much like part of a ....... knife ...... Shhh.
Buck? Well, this one is so often associated with knives (SHARP knives, too) that it's gonna have to go.
Bye Bye Buckie.
You do have a point there, Dave......OOPS!!
I said "point".....that sounds a bit dangerous.....like it might produce anxiety in those knife-haters who wear lace on their panties.
Gosh.....I wonder what other words we should quit using?
Hmmmm.....
Sharp? Sounds scary and dangerous to living creatures. Let's call it....."finely beveled."
(Sharpening thus becomes "beveling.")
Cut? Oh.....that's gotta go, too. Maybe we can say "incise" instead?
Gut a deer? Oh dear, Bambi. Remember to say "field dress."
Stab? Obviously, that's got to go. We'll just pretend there's never any stabbing. Sticking is out, too. Poke might work.
Chop? Well, maybe only in conjunction with "sticks" or "karate."
Slash? Clearly, only a psychopath would use such a word.
Edge? Idunno......seems to imply that cutting......er, oops.....incising, might be involved (which could lead to our pre-banned word......BLOOD).
Knife? Sounds DAMNED dangerous and aggressive.....like a thing that could be used for stabbing or cutting or slashing or gutting. People even use it as an action word......"A woman got KNIFED last night outside a bar." Picture her lying in a pool of ....... blood .......Enough to make a girly-man shudder and involuntarily make a puddle!
Maybe "Personal Incising Tool" instead of "knife?"
Blade? Can't use that.....sounds too much like part of a ....... knife ...... Shhh.
Buck? Well, this one is so often associated with knives (SHARP knives, too) that it's gonna have to go.
Bye Bye Buckie.
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2006
- Messages
- 424
Love the 120!
Now you need one like this! This Idaho stamp is hard to find. Only about 200 made. Even Plumberdv probably doesn't have one!!
The more the merrier.
You mean one like this?
I threw in another rare one just for kicks----a barrel nut 120.
Telechronos
David Martin
Moderator
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- Apr 7, 2008
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- 19,520
I had no idea a discussion on 120's would prompt such. JB, I was hoping someone would post a photo of that knife. I almost bought one when they brought them out at the 20yr. reunion. The reason it doesn't have a fuller groove is it was a throw back to Hoyt's stacked plexi-glass handled knives as those didn't either. Many of you have some nice 120's. Man, a barrel nut model! DM
David Martin
Moderator
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45, Glad you got it. Whats the stamping on your model 120 and 119? Those look to be 1980 or 81 mfg.. That sheath style I like as it holds it quiet and secure. The flap over can be noisy. DM
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 3,115
I have to disagree as well, first off I have always heard it refered to as a BLOOD GROOVE and thats its purpose. Second off I am so tried of people, trying so hard to be politically correct. Unfortunately most of the time they work so hard to white wash the terms people use to describe things,, that nobody understands what the hell anybody is even talking about. If people want to get there feelings hurt by the terms others use to describe things, LET THEM, Thats why this country is in the shambles it is today, there is always someone that got hurt feelings and want verbage changed... How about " IN GOD WE TRUST" should we nix that from everything that this country was built on, cause there is someone who chooses not to believe in God...
I appoligize for the rant but lets get real, Political Correctness is for the Communists,, I'm sticking with BLOOD GROOVE
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Damn sure are alot of nice blades here, AND 4570's and BloodGrooves....
Kool
Kool
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- Jan 30, 2010
- Messages
- 13,423
Hi and welcome to the Buck forum Big4570,I don't blame you for being excited to score 120,I would be too.That's on my gonna get list for my modest collection.As far as the 110 goes it's down right amazing how much knife you get for the money in the standard Buck 110.
David Martin
Moderator
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- Apr 7, 2008
- Messages
- 19,520
Skyhorse, I'm still after you a model 120. Nearly had you one at the Las Cruces Show if the owner had been willing. DM