Just venting a bit

Yes nobody is perfect, but we can all try our best to make it there:thumbup: I try my best to always be honest, its hard but worth it in the long run. The people that lie and cheat are taking shortcuts that usually lead to failure.
 
I may be mixing the pot a bit. I completely agree with panchO that kits arent' the same as doing everything by hand and that Kit makers should be up front and open

...but... let me ask this...

Should that include everyone who uses services such as water jet cutting?

I could have all the pieces to a folder waterjet cut and I grind the profile and fit it together, and I haven't done much more than a kit maker... except design and grind

I know this has come up often, but I thought I'd throw that out there.
Jason
 
I wouldn't put it in the same boat. Here are some reasons off the top of my head. I haven't used a waterjet service yet.

1. I dont think the water jet would come exactly the shape you need with out having to modify and remove material to the exact profile you need.
2. You still have to grind the bevels and finish the blade
3. You have to put the final edge on the blade yourself.
4. I think water jetting is used to remove material and not waste time removing as much steel as you would from a bar of steel, if you don't have a bandsaw to do that.

Maybe I am wrong being new to this, but these are my thoughts.
 
Yep, the waterjet replaces tedious and boring bandsaw time.

It also allows you to utilize your material more efficiently.
 
Look at the world of art. There are some "artists" that make a living essentially doing paint by numbers sets, knocking off cheap copies of seaside scenes and other retrograde "art". And then there are the masters that produce real, insightful pieces. And between the two extremes are millions of people with varying degrees of talent and technique.

So it is with knife making. While it may upset you that someone declares their assembled kits as custom knives, the bottom line is yours are MORE custom. Does his work demean yours? Only if you let it.

So do what you do with pride. Do the best you can do. Or, if all you care about is profit, look for some really nice kits and start assembling...

As with the art world, true artisans are rarely all about the profit. You have to decide what's important to you. And if someone else makes a different choice, they can sell their soul for a dollar and your soul will still be unscathed.

- Greg
 
What we have here is failure to communicate. :D

I've always felt that the term "custom" is horribly misused within the knife community.

Custom doesn't mean hand made from scratch in any industry I can think of. Nor should it. That's not what custom means in the dictionary:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/custom

Custom
adj.
1. Made to order.
2. Specializing in the making or selling of made-to-order goods: a custom tailor.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language

Custom
adj.
1. made to the specifications of an individual customer (often in the combinations custom-built, custom-made)
2. specializing in goods so made
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged

In other craft fields, the term "custom" usually means 1) altered or "tricked out" or 2) Made to order. You have a car, and then you got a custom flamed paint job. You bought a house and the kitchen was an odd shape, so you needed CUSTOM cabinets put in. None of the factory surfboards had the kind of tail you prefer, so you took one to a shaper and he customized the tail.

The knife world causes great confusion when the term "custom" is used to imply handmade. Only the word "handmade" means handmade. I know in the jewelry field, handmade has been defined to include use of machinery so long as the machinery is in direct control of the user (not a computer)

I'm not expecting the knife world to change overnight. That's an unrealistic expectation. But over time, I think knifemakers describing their knives as handmade will help better communicate how the object came to be.

While we're on the subject of these terms, I also hear people describe thier knives as "one-of-a-kind". this can be dangerous territory if you are not making high-end art knives. The fact that two pieces of burl cannot be identical is not enough to call something one of a kind. The same goes for recreating a previous knife but changing the steel. One of a kind should mean absolutely singular in design, materials and craftsmanship. If you can truthfully say that you've never made another knife like it, then "one-of-a-kind" works. If it's part of a run but just has a slight difference to the others, you should just say that it is unique and describe the differences.
 
I agree on the "custom" point. Although I make knives I would not call them custom, but I do call them handmade. They are not copies of someones knives, even if my knives are influenced buy someones work they still have my touches to them to make them individual and mine. I don't even think I could copy someones work if I wanted to.
I also don't consider having someone water jet you blanks to be a kit knife. It is still a product of your mind, you just hired someone to do some of the labor for you and cut back on waste material.
 
jawilder said:
I may be mixing the pot a bit. I completely agree with panchO that kits arent' the same as doing everything by hand and that Kit makers should be up front and open

...but... let me ask this...

Should that include everyone who uses services such as water jet cutting?

I could have all the pieces to a folder waterjet cut and I grind the profile and fit it together, and I haven't done much more than a kit maker... except design and grind

I know this has come up often, but I thought I'd throw that out there.
Jason
Click to expand...

I use waterjet services. When I don't, I'm forced to use the hacksaw (and that sucks). I don't consider the same as making a kit knife. One reason is that the design is 100% mine, this makes it my knife from start to finish.

I think we'd all agree that if we all had waterjet machines in our garages, there wouldn't be an issue. It's just a tool, like a grinder or a bandsaw (just more expensive). Because I can't afford one, I must hire the use of the machine. If waterjet machines were intelligent and capable of designing and churning out pre-shaped blanks, then it would be the same as finishing up a kit knife.

That said, I'm very up-front about every stage of my knifemaking process. I tell people exactly what materials, tools, and techniques I use. This helps raise customer awareness and can only benefit the (honest) knife industry.

Phillip
 
In the recent Jantz catalog they are now selling knife blanks that are not ground nor finished, but they are "cryogenically quenched during the heat treating process for optimal edge holding capabilities." The steels used vary from blade to blade and include D2, CPMS 30V, 154CM, and 1095. All the holes are drilled. Exactly how a NORMAL person is to grind the edge of a heat treated knife is beyond me. Can a knife made from this type of knife blank be considered handmade in terms of the ongoing discussion?


For purposes of discussion It seems to me that for a knife to considered handmade at the VERY MINIMUM,

1. the blade edge be totally forged/beveled/ground by the maker, and
2. The handle be put on and shaped by the maker

Putting a piece of steel in a CNC machine and punching the "run" button is not handmade. Yes there is skill and talent needed to program and run the equipment but it is not HAND-made.

So using pre-made bolsters, guards, blade blanks, etc, and sending it out for heat treating is all OK.


LonePine
AKA Paul Meske, Wisconsin
 
I wouldn't think so, you would still be buying another person's basic design. To me the whole concept of handmade is to take it from imagination to paper to steel o a finished knife. It is more then just making it is creating, but that is just my opinion, doesn't mean its right. As for the bolsters and guards I still think that a maker should be making their own, but it is a small piece of the puzzle.
 
Partially handmade? I have to disagree. I'm making a folder on my own. Sure, I am using pre-made screws, pivots, standoff, detent balls, but I am cutting the handles and blades myself. I would argue strongly with anyone who would call this folder "partially handmade" or "partially custom". Frankly, I understand that some people make their own standoffs and pivots, but I would be REALLY impressed if ANYONE here was making their own 1/16" detent balls. Some things are just not practical to make by hand.


Oh, and I agree that bolsters and guards should be made by the maker, but I wouldn't remove a knife from the handmade category if the used store bought guards and did the rest themselves.
 
I would say that if you buy all the pieces premade from someone else and all you do is put them together and do a little bit of final shaping, then it is not custom/handmade. It may still be a very good knife and it still takes some skill to get it to look right but saying that it is completely handmade or custom might be taking it too far. Especially if you ask for top dollar. As for "partially handmade/custom", sometimes you have to buy a piece or two if you dont have the facility/equipment to do the work.
 
zaph1 said:
Partially handmade? I have to disagree. I'm making a folder on my own. Sure, I am using pre-made screws, pivots, standoff, detent balls, but I am cutting the handles and blades myself. I would argue strongly with anyone who would call this folder "partially handmade" or "partially custom". Frankly, I understand that some people make their own standoffs and pivots, but I would be REALLY impressed if ANYONE here was making their own 1/16" detent balls. Some things are just not practical to make by hand.


Oh, and I agree that bolsters and guards should be made by the maker, but I wouldn't remove a knife from the handmade category if the used store bought guards and did the rest themselves.
Click to expand...

If someone here is actually making their own detent balls I am going to bow down and worship their patients:p. It is more then understandable to buy the hardware for a folder, its just not feasible for most people to own a lathe to make their own. Lee Valley does sell a jewelers lathe that I have been looking at for under $300 for the basic parts minus a motor.
 
At some level every knife is the result of the labor of many people. No one person does everything that brings it together, no matter how industrious they may believe themself to be.

How many knifemakers mine the ores that will become the steel? How many take the ores, melt it in crucibles and mix all the rarer ingredients together to make that steel, or brass, or titanium, or whatever it is they need?

How many knifemakers harvest the trees that will become the handle?

How many produce the epoxy from component chemicals, or create the tung oil?

Those with forges will assert that the true art of knifemaking starts there. Those without forges will assert that the true art begins with stock removal. Those who start with blanks or blades will assert that the true art is in the modling of the pieces into the final product.

They are all making knives, and none are really making it "from scratch".

We each define the art to assuage our own ego, and we wear that definition on our sleeves daring others to knock it off, for that is what men do, and this is a manly art if ever there was one.

Take heart, fellow artists of the blade, for you are doing something worthwhile and valuable. You are carrying on a tool making tradition that began long ago, and will continue long after we are gone. It matters not whether your bare fingernails were used to scratch the ore from the ground, the knife you make is still your own. And if someone else says or feels otherwise, you may amuse yourself by seeing their ego on their sleeve, and know that others amuse themselves by observing your ego on your sleeve.

- Greg
 
I have actually cut the wood, made the charcoal, smelted the iron and forged the blade to make one of my knives.

If you start with a blade or kit made by someone else you are not a knifemaker,

if you do so and call it your own work that is FRAUD. PERIOD.

-Page
 
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