K390 Military

Ben Dover said:
I completely agree Mr. Ankerson. Your points are indeed valid, and your research is quite impressive. (And very much appreciated, at least by myself, BTW )

But the point of my argument was that at the time when S90V and CPM M-4 were new to the knife world, the same problems applied to them. New and creative solutons were sought, and found, that made these steels the "piece of cake" that they are today. I am convinced that the same dedication to progress could (and probably will) drive new and creative solutions to the current difficulties hindering the development of blades in K390,K294, etc.

Farid is already experimenting with CPM Rex 121, considered by some to be the next generation of blade steel that will eventually replace the K390 generation.


Captain Hero:

Yes, we all owe a debt of gratitude to Mr. Glesser for moving the cutlery industry forward. Without his leadership, M-2 would, in all likelihood, still be considered a "supersteel."
Click to expand...

Rex 121 is interesting, not so sure how durable it is though in knife blades (How thick the grind has to be for stability) and the corrosion resistance isn't reported to be that great.

Some basic issues comparing CPM 10V and CPM 15V, if the blade grind has to be much thicker in 15V to get the stability of 10V then we are at the point of diminishing returns in knife blades.

And that's not even getting into the process of making knife blades and the materials needed to produce them.

It's one thing for a Custom guy to go through 6+ Belts grinding out and finishing one blade and the time to do so, but in a production setting I just don't know and what would the cost be of these knives if they could be produced.....

Then think about who would be buying these knives taking into count the wear resistance of these steels it not going to be ave Joe that's for sure and even a lot of knife people don't have the proper equipment to sharpen them, even less have the equipment to repair the edge if they get a chip or something.

These steels are in a different world than steels like S30V that people say is hard to sharpen, S30V is like dealing with pot metal compared to these steels we are talking about here.
 
Last edited:
Mr. Ankerson,

I most certainy cannot argue or disagree with the points in your argument. :thumbup:

But I can, and do, always hope for progress and unexpected breakthrouhs in steel technology!! :):)
 
Spyderco was the first to use diamond grinding wheels back in the early 2000's, that made S60V and S90V available for factory use, but a few years ago when Crucible started making S125V lots of shaping methods were discussed and nothing suitable was found.

I was really hopeful for MIM when Kershaw did the Offset, since you don't do any grinding to get the blade shape with that process. As with many concept pieces nothing has come of it though.

My bet is that the technology to make knives with virtually any material is available right now, but the industry is just too small to make it happen.
 
Joshua J. said:
Spyderco was the first to use diamond grinding wheels back in the early 2000's, that made S60V and S90V available for factory use, but a few years ago when Crucible started making S125V lots of shaping methods were discussed and nothing suitable was found.

I was really hopeful for MIM when Kershaw did the Offset, since you don't do any grinding to get the blade shape with that process. As with many concept pieces nothing has come of it though.

My bet is that the technology to make knives with virtually any material is available right now, but the industry is just too small to make it happen.
Click to expand...

No doubt. It's simply a matter of waiting for cost effective manufacturing techniques to catch up with technology. I sincerely hope that you younger folks will live to see it! :thumbup:
 
Joshua J. said:
Spyderco was the first to use diamond grinding wheels back in the early 2000's, that made S60V and S90V available for factory use, but a few years ago when Crucible started making S125V lots of shaping methods were discussed and nothing suitable was found.

I was really hopeful for MIM when Kershaw did the Offset, since you don't do any grinding to get the blade shape with that process. As with many concept pieces nothing has come of it though.

My bet is that the technology to make knives with virtually any material is available right now, but the industry is just too small to make it happen.
Click to expand...

The industry is large enough, the problem is the market of people who would be willing to pay the price for the knives in steels like S125V isn't large enough.

Sure they can make production knives out of S125V, but the cost would be VERY high and the number of knives would be be limited due to the time and cost of producing the knives.
 
i dont know much about these new steels, but i do recall when s30v first came about that many people spoke of the same sharpening issues. but once time and production changed accordingly, now its no biggie. i just think of what is to come in the future. i love the steels i have now, i just look forward to the steels of tomorrow, today.
 
Captain Hero said:
i dont know much about these new steels, but i do recall when s30v first came about that many people spoke of the same sharpening issues. but once time and production changed accordingly, now its no biggie. i just think of what is to come in the future. i love the steels i have now, i just look forward to the steels of tomorrow, today.
Click to expand...

S90V was out long before S30V was. ;)

It was more production manufacturing issues as in wear on the machinery that S30V was adopted, S90V has 9% vanadium compared to S30V at 4%, S90V was too wear resistant.

Also SIC Stones have been around for a very long time and they will handle any of the high wear, high alloy steels.

And still around 20 years later we still don't have S90V standard production knives...... ;)
 
No doubt. It's simply a matter of waiting for cost effective manufacturing techniques to catch up with technology. I sincerely hope that you younger folks will live to see it!
Click to expand...

Yes. Imagine taking a S90V, or S110V steel knife back to the 60's and put it on the market. I think Men in Black would want a few words with you. :)

The progress has been tremendous, especially in the last 10 years in the production knife category. Even now there are things that are possible that aren't being done due to the cost/market. 3 years ago (?) or so Hardheart had some very nice S125V folders made and imported them for sale here. There wasn't a huge market for them even then.

One thing I've had to accept that despite having a market for them, non stainless steel knives just don't sell in the numbers stainless knives do. This holds true in supersteels even. Heck, my son is one of them that just won't buy or carry a non stainless blade for his job as a maintenance mechanic. A better performing steel in non stainless will get overlooked for something adequate in stainless. He didn't get that from me. I'm about as opposite as there is.

A 2,000 knife run in any steel is too large. One that is expensive, difficult to produce and done in batches by necessity isn't a great idea for a production company.

I recall BG42 Millies ( 1200 knife sprint) sitting on the shelves for at least 6 months after release. A 2,000 run batch of a much more expensive, less corrosion resistant knives even with huge wear resistance won't happen any time soon.
 
Yet there are production knives available, and apparently in demand in CPM M-4, a non stainless steel.

Perhaps S90V isn't used yet, but Carpenter CTS 20CP is out, B-U Elmax, Duratech 20CV and B-U M390 are out, and gaining popularity.

It's only a matter of time Gentlemen! :D

Perhaps 2000 pieces is a bit optimistic, but 750 to 1000 is certainly a realistic sprint run size. I sincerely hope that Mr. Glesser will continue his dedication to being the leader in the industry, and always "first with the best." It would be disappointing indeed for a competitor to be the first to offer K390. :(:(
 
Ben Dover said:
Yet there are production knives available, and apparently in demand in CPM M-4, a non stainless steel.

Perhaps S90V isn't used yet, but Carpenter CTS 20CP is out, B-U Elmax, Duratech 20CV and B-U M390 are out, and gaining popularity.

It's only a matter of time Gentlemen! :D

Perhaps 2000 pieces is a bit optimistic, but 750 to 1000 is certainly a realistic sprint run size. I sincerely hope that Mr. Glesser will continue his dedication to being the leader in the industry, and always "first with the best." It would be disappointing indeed for a competitor to be the first to offer K390. :(:(
Click to expand...


CTS-20CP was a sprint run.

M390, 20CV and ELMAX are were in production knives some limited.

Not a fan of M4 personally, but it's OK, there are better steels avaible.
 
Ankerson said:
S90V was out long before S30V was. ;)

It was more production manufacturing issues as in wear on the machinery that S30V was adopted, S90V has 9% vanadium compared to S30V at 4%, S90V was too wear resistant.

Also SIC Stones have been around for a very long time and they will handle any of the high wear, high alloy steels.

And still around 20 years later we still don't have S90V standard production knives...... ;)
Click to expand...

i havent seen many s90v blades. and i really dont know much about it other than what i read about it on here. i trust your guys' imput more than my own experience with it since i dont have any blades with this steel. is s35vn going to "replace" s30v so to speak? i read that spartan blades is in the process of transitioning from s30v to s35vn to their fixed blades. i think the native 5 uses s35vn to doesnt it?
 
Captain Hero said:
i havent seen many s90v blades. and i really dont know much about it other than what i read about it on here. i trust your guys' imput more than my own experience with it since i dont have any blades with this steel. is s35vn going to "replace" s30v so to speak? i read that spartan blades is in the process of transitioning from s30v to s35vn to their fixed blades. i think the native 5 uses s35vn to doesnt it?
Click to expand...

S35VN is supposed to replace S30V I guess, I like S30V personally. :)
 
There are costs to using these steels, costs all over the place. You can go from a couple bucks a pound to over a hundred bucks a pound, just for the steel. If you can't grind it with your equipment, you need new equipment. So then you buy the new equipment, test it, buy newer equipment, test again, and continue until you have the right equipment. You need to figure out the heat treat. To do that, you heat treat that hundred dollar a pound steel, then grind on it, beat on it, break it, rust it, etc. When you've done your testing, called the metallurgists, retooled the shop, you order your steel. Hopefully they have it. Hopefully in the right dimensions. Hopefully with a good surface finish. Hopefully without flaws and inclusions. You buy the steel, grind it, experiment with it, pay your workers to do this, buy new equipment for it, and you haven't even made a single knife to sell yet. Cause once you do sell a knife, it needs to be right, or you eat even more costs fixing the problems once they hit the market and frustrate your customers.
 
singularity35 said:
Wow! Just Wow!
Click to expand...

Yeah that would be one heck of a knife, a Military in K390 or K294. :D

Given a Good HT and reasonable hardness (63 HRC) it would hold an edge longer than any other production knife ever made, and by a large percentage.

At that hardness and the typical blade thickness and grind of the Military it would be more than strong enough and have the edge stability to not have any problems.

It would be the ultimate folder for those who want or need the absolute best in edge retention that is avaible.

Steels in the same group are: CPM 10V, K294 and K390, also CPM S110V at high hardness (63 HRC)

But that would come at a price (cost) and difficulty in sharpening that would have to be addressed I would think so people would know what they are in for if they buy one of the knives so they can get the proper sharpening supplies that would be needed. :)

Like I always say, there are no free lunches in steels.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top