KA-BAR Tech Talk

Toooj

Are you going to be able to make it to the WNY Gathering on July 28, 29, 30th ???

If so, thanks, & bring some #1480 TDI clips, a #1249, & a BK15 for me please & a #1248 to check out. Thanks. I hope you can make it & if so, please post the day for those that can't stay for all 3 days. I know your busy & thats a long way out, but any input would help.

Best Regards
TwinStick
 
Twinstick,

I can't make it this year. I'll be at the AG Russell show.
I'm trying to arrange for another KA-BAR person to be there so you guys can get a bunch of low cost swag.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Qual
KA-BAR Knives
 
Toooj ,
Was just curious if the guard and buttcap on the USMC 1217 and 1211 is powdered metal ?
Some websites say they both are , others say that just the buttcap is.
Also i was wondering why Ka-Bar uses a half-pinned method of attaching the buttcap as opposed to the pin going all the way through the buttcap, is there any advantage this ?
 
Cam brboru7,

On the 1211,12,17 etc, the guard is cold rolled carbon steel. It is progressively blanked from coil stock.
On the 1221, 70,72,81 the guards are/were powdered metal.
The Pommel (Buttcap) on all of the product is powdered metal steel. It used to be blanked out of thicker carbon steel coil stock but there are a lot of issues doing it that way. Powdered metal is a much cleaner way to do it. The first generations of powdered metal were not as strong as wrought or rolled steel. However, technology moves on and the latest versions are very close to wrought and rolled stock in terms of toughness, strength, etc.
We feel the half pinned method provides the same holding strength but the blind hole only allows the pin to exit from one end as opposed to both ends of a through drilled hole. ie; the potential of a lost pin is doubled. The pin is the weak link of the pommel/ handle assembly;either from shearing or falling out.The original pins used to be carbon steel but for the last 5 years or so, we have used stainless steel: stronger and tougher.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Qual
KA-BAR Knives
 
Hey Toooj,

I've noticed something about the Kraton-handled 1213 and the Leather-handled 1217. The 1213's handle is slightly shorter and fatter than the 1217's handle. Is this a deliberate design decision, or was it a design gaffe that wasn't worth rectifying?
 
Mr. Tsujimoto,

I've noticed on the Ka-Bar Grass machete and Warthog (larger Taiwan version) that theres a destinctive second bevel throughout the grind making it a 3 beveled knife and almost like a convex ground blade...Is this done intentionally? Also, whats up with the low HRC on the cutlass, grass and khukri machetes aswell as the warthog...Wondering because the heavy bowie has a slightly higher one and if I'm not mistaken is designed by you.

Thanks for your time.
 
DeepFried,

Good eye. The 1211/12/13 was done just before I got to Cutco/KA-BAR so I can't take credit for that product. The problem was that the engineers used the handle for the 1221 Next Gen knife as a pattern for the 1211 knife. The guard for the 1221 was different (thicker) from the 1211. That accounts for the shorter handle. The old 1217 leather handles used to be finished by hand so the older handles were fatter. The handles are now CNC'd and are thinner but more uniform from piece to piece.
We are doing things to make the handles (Both Kraton and Leather) more uniform.

CamH,

Yes those grinds are intentional. The machete needed to have material removed from the geometry so a finer edge could be obtained. Remember our grass machete is a bit thicker stock than the normal standard issue machetes so that was a better way of getting the edge correct. On the Warthog, we have since gone to a full flat grind. (Easier to grind and no difference in performance)
The large choppers (Khuk, Cutlass,machete, Warthog) will have a lower HRc. We want toughness and ease of sharpening over pure hardness for hard use work/chopping tools. The heavy Bowie is sort of a cross over knife that will see some chopping but probably more cutting work so we opted for a higher HRc. Trade offs; Engineering, as in life, is a bunch of trade offs.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Qual
KA-BAR Knives
 
Toooj said:
...We feel the half pinned method provides the same holding strength but the blind hole only allows the pin to exit from one end as opposed to both ends of a through drilled hole. ie; the potential of a lost pin is doubled. The pin is the weak link of the pommel/ handle assembly;either from shearing or falling out.The original pins used to be carbon steel but for the last 5 years or so, we have used stainless steel: stronger and tougher....
Click to expand...

Hey Toooj,

Does the blind hole/pin extend into the other side of the pommel, at least a few pin diameters...?


Thanks Toooj.



GR


(P.S. Will the new Mk-1 "Garandimal"...errr "Toooj" have the same attachment? :D )
 
Garandimal,

Yes,
The drawing says the pin goes past the far side of the tang a distance of 0.170". This isn't a few diameters but sufficient to hold the pommel on the tang.

GR; Sorry to say, but the proposed Garandimal Mk1 has been axed from the new products list.
Snnnifff. :( Sad, but that is the life of a designer. BTW; the pommel would have been attached in the same way.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Qual
KA-BAR Knives
 
Toooj said:
...GR; Sorry to say, but the proposed Garandimal Mk1 has been axed from the new products list...
Click to expand...

That's a shame.

I guess those "Zombie" knives are pretty popular.

(kinda... potpourri... though, for a combat knife outfit like KA-BAR.)


At $60.00? I'd have thought that y'all would've sold quite a few of'em.

Maybe in place of other KA-BAR knives.


Power of the Free-Market.


The Fallkniven S1 is more expensive, but it's stainless jacketed and full-tang, so you get what you pay for. (even if you didn't necessarily want it)

(I'd've bought Two (2) Mk-1 "Garandimals" for the same price.)


Power of the Free-Market.



Nine (9) new KA-BAR's (1217's/1250's/2225's) over the last few years still makes me a big fan...


Thanks Toooj.



GR
 
Toooj said:
CamH,

Yes those grinds are intentional. The machete needed to have material removed from the geometry so a finer edge could be obtained. Remember our grass machete is a bit thicker stock than the normal standard issue machetes so that was a better way of getting the edge correct. On the Warthog, we have since gone to a full flat grind. (Easier to grind and no difference in performance)
The large choppers (Khuk, Cutlass,machete, Warthog) will have a lower HRc. We want toughness and ease of sharpening over pure hardness for hard use work/chopping tools. The heavy Bowie is sort of a cross over knife that will see some chopping but probably more cutting work so we opted for a higher HRc. Trade offs; Engineering, as in life, is a bunch of trade offs.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Qual
KA-BAR Knives
Click to expand...

Thanks for the insight!
 
Toooj said:
DeepFried,

Good eye. The 1211/12/13 was done just before I got to Cutco/KA-BAR so I can't take credit for that product. The problem was that the engineers used the handle for the 1221 Next Gen knife as a pattern for the 1211 knife. The guard for the 1221 was different (thicker) from the 1211. That accounts for the shorter handle. The old 1217 leather handles used to be finished by hand so the older handles were fatter. The handles are now CNC'd and are thinner but more uniform from piece to piece.
We are doing things to make the handles (Both Kraton and Leather) more uniform.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the history, Toooj. I'd love to get my ogre hands on a kraton handle shaped like the leather one. Right now I'm squashing all my fingers together.
 
Hey Toooj,

Any plan over there at KA-BAR to bring out a 5-1/4" version of the clip-point BK17...?

That would be about right and full-tang ta'boot.


BK18 "Garandimal"...? :D


EDIT: or maybe a 5-1/4" short clip-point BK7...?



Thanks Toooj.



GR
 
Last edited:
Hey Toooj,


Had another question(s) for you...

Was thinkin'bout re-profiling the Mk1's pommel to an oval shape to match the handle, keeping the major axis reveal constant.

Besides improving the grip, this should also improve the handling by moving the balance point forward a little and lightening the knife a bit as well.

(I think the original mil. pommels were oval and either aluminum or wood)


You mentioned IIRC that the pommel was cast powered steel.

Q.1 Is it solid, sans the tang slot and retaining-pin hole?

Q.2 Do you see any problems w/ this mod.?


Thanks Toooj.



GR
 
Garandimal,

Oval pommel could be produced but it would take a lot of development and tooling costs. The pommel on the remake Mk1 is the 1217 knob so it was an existing part. A lot of the develpment isssues involve tooling, producing new parts (either in the factory or at venders) This is always a cost issue. How to make the knife for a reasonable price. We can produce just about anything. But will we be able to sell them at the high price point that would be necessary to charge? Our experience is; No. Almost all of our ventures into high dollar knives have met with disapppointing results.

The original WWII KA-BAR Mk1 pommel was a blanked and machined steel disc. There may have been some models that had shaped hardwood pommels. Probably out of necessity due to material shortages during the war.
The new powdered metal pommel is solid. The tang slot is cast in the part and the retaining pin hole is drilled as a secondary operation at the Cutco factory.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Qual
KA-BAR Knives
 
Thanks Toooj,

That helps a lot.

I was thinkin'bout using a belt-sander to reshape the pommel and didn't want to find any internal voids the hard way... ;)

Understand price point and applaud KA-BAR for their Quality/Cost ratio.

I buy and use a lot of'em.


The Mk1 "Garandimal" would have balanced that 1217 pommel a lot better...

...but that's just me.


Noticed ya passed on the BK dev. question.

Outside your purview? (your pay-grade seems to be about right)



Thanks Toooj.


GR
 
Last edited:
Garandimal,

As far as Product designs; we try to keep a low profile on devopment. We let slip just enough to keep everyone in tune. Too much information just gets the overly excited (think Beckerheads) too wound up.
I am an integral part of the new products team, but I am just one part of the team. We operate as a team, which means I don't always get my way....sort of like life. I'm not whining. I like my position and responsibilities but ultimately it's about KA-BAR, not any one individual.
Design is just one part of the product, marketing, sales equation. All questions and criteria must be satisfied before we go to market with any product.
If you hear us talking about it it's usually been in development for 2-5 years. However, sometimes, like your design, we throw some pasta against the wall and see what sticks. Like the pasta, it usually ends up on the floor. Don't feel bad; that's just the life of a designer.


Best Regards,


Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Qual
KA-BAR Knives
 
Hey Garandimal, if you're not inclined to wait for KA-BAR's approval, I know a factory in China that would be glad to produce your Mk-1 in Chinese 1095 equivalent. Give them your schematics and a minimum 2000 piece order, and they'll crank them out by November. [/sarcasm]
 
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