Well if I cannot get mine to work well for general utility things I think I will ask for my money back. It is not a wood chopping knife, so I think it really needs a sightly sharper edge than that.
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KA-BAR USMC, Short; Came dull, cannot get Sharp
- Thread starter wisnoskij
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Well if I cannot get mine to work well for general utility things I think I will ask for my money back. It is not a wood chopping knife, so I think it really needs a sightly sharper edge than that.
If glazing is a sign of AlO then I have to agree with those more knowledgeable than I. Mine did glaze over on the course side the first time I tried lapping it. And to not derail this thread any more ( sorry OP) I won't post the pictures of the two stones being lapped. Enjoy your festivities tonight!
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Generally speaking, diamond hones are a big advantage on more wear-resistant steels like S30V, D2, ZDP, etc. The abundant carbides in those steels (formed from high combinations of carbon, chromium and vanadium in the alloy) will be much, much harder, and diamond is better able to abrade them efficiently. Other abrasives can work, but will be slower (sometimes much slower).
And so long as one takes care of the diamond hones, and doesn't use excessive pressure with them, they'll last a very long time with little wear (and they'll stay flat). Diamond seems expensive up front, but I've never regretted paying for it, after having used it. With something like a re-bevelling job on S30V, the difference is huge. Also speeds things up when re-bevelling very large or thick blades in simpler steels as well.
David
diamods cut almost everything faster, they don't dish like other stones. they also give a very toothy edge. they will treat your kabar like butter.
OK so mostly just faster.
But I am not sure how to look up sharpening jargon, what does "dish" mean?
And by toothy you are implying that blades sharpened by diamond stones will be minutely serrated, at least more so than the normal stones (I guess the very hard diamonds would create a more even sharp edged groves)?
Unless I misread everything here I am leaning towards the non-diamond honers, I really do not want to spend $100.
But than looking at the packages for GATCO there are two similarly priced ones ($60) and one is diamond.
I can go with a 4 piece + serrated(which I have no use for at this time, and can get the attachment when I do I assume). The pieces go form fine to extra coarse.
The other one comes in a better case and have only 2 diamond ones, course and fine.
So I can get just as fine, and the extra power of the diamond sounds like it would beat the extra course anyways.
I never really understood why you would even want a huge variety, this kit implies you can just skip from course to fine, so why have 2 extra steps in-between if you do not need them (waste more times setting it up that you would save, it seems to me).
But how do you figure out what the grit is? The normal "fine" is apparently only 320 Grit, but it does not say for the diamond ones and the diamond ones do not go any lower than fine. If fine is the same it seems to me I should also pick up at least the 600 grit hone (You would not want to skip from 320 to 1200, I assume)? Note: one of the packs goes from fine diamond to 1200 grit, so I guess it is possible to skip the 600 grip from D fine.
Anyone know how to find Gatco dealers, I am not a big fan of shipping charges.
Biggest problem I am a Canada, but if I was willing to wait I could have the grandparents bring them back from Florida (they drive so the store does not need to be in Florida).
Biggest problem I am a Canada, but if I was willing to wait I could have the grandparents bring them back from Florida (they drive so the store does not need to be in Florida).
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'Dished' means stone wear, which usually is somewhat uneven and leaves a sunken or 'dished' area in the central portion of the stone. Bottom line, the stone isn't flat anymore, and therefore wouldn't work well in a guided setup, due to inconsistencies in the sharpening angle.
And 'toothy' does imply the edge will have a more aggressive scratch pattern left by the diamond, which cuts the steel more deeply than other abrasives.
A wider range of grits will allow more refinement of an edge. If the goal is for highly polished bevels (or nearly so), it would be difficult to accomplish with just a 'coarse' and 'fine' hone, because the fine hone would take a very long time to smooth out the deep scratches left by the coarse hone. That's where the intermediate stages would be useful. Good working edges can still be produced with just a coarse/fine combination, but the end result wouldn't be as refined, in terms of the finish left on the bevels.
There's no direct correlation in grit size, between diamond abrasive and other types of abrasive (such as aluminum oxide, silicon carbide, or 'natural' stones like Arkansas). So, a '600' diamond grit is approximately 'medium' for diamond abrasives, with 320 being 'coarse' and 1200 being 'fine'. The '600' diamond would likely be much more aggressive than a '600' silicon carbide, aluminum oxide or ceramic. This is due to the big difference in how aggressively each type will cut. Diamond is obviously harder than any other, so it will cut more deeply, and leave a coarser finish, for a given same 'grit' number. They are graded according to different methods or standards, so there's no relationship between the different scales. In general terms, diamond is most aggressive, followed by something like silicon carbide, then aluminum oxide (a.k.a. 'corundum' as it's sometimes called), followed by ceramics, which leave a much more refined/polished finish for a given grit number. Most of the 'natural' (Arkansas) stones will be the least aggressive, and cut much more slowly than the others.
If you're not inclined to spend the extra $$ on the full diamond kit, just having one supplementary diamond hone in Coarse/XC can be a big help for heavy grinding (re-bevelling) jobs. The standard hones will usually work OK for additional refinement, after doing the 'grunt work' with the diamond hone.
David
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I'd be skirting the forum rules by specifically mentioning dealers who aren't BF members. But, if you shop the web a little bit, and take a look in particular at the 'global marketplace' named after a certain South American river (
), you might get free shipping in the U.S. for any order over $25 (make sure to read the details). Presumably, they could ship to your grandparents' address in Florida at no extra cost. The cutlery site called knifecenter.com is a BF member, and they do carry Gatco. I don't think their shipping is free, but they do have a good reputation. Sometimes, other dealers offering 'free' shipping end up adding that cost to the 'normal' price of the items they sell, so sometimes 'free shipping' is not as good a deal as it seems. Always best to shop around and compare the deals.David
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Asked GATCO the same question and found a dealer in Canada, no store locations near here but at least decent shipping prices, better then waiting 3 months for the grandparents.
The Canadian version of the South American river site had a few sharpeners but I think this Gatco is worth paying a little more for, I like how the guide sticks work.
That is a pretty annoying rule, no mentioning dealers that are not affiliated with this forum. And who is going to memorise the allowed dealers anyways.
I think I will just cave and get a full set, this owning a knife thing is turning out to be more expensive than I expected but it is not like there are other things I would rather spend my money on.
I was wondering why different sets give different instructions for use? Is it just marketing? GATCO stresses their "4-point system" where you just go straight up (perpendicular to the blade edge) the blade move over and do it again (NO sweeping motion). Most others tell you to use a sweeping motion so you have one continuous motion for most or all of the blade. Also some systems look like they use identical hones but one company will advertise dry use and another will say always use their specially designed oil.
Also one last questions. What about systems for really big blades. I have a Kukri ordered, and it comes with its own speciality sharpening system that has you use some dull tiny knife thing to sharpen your blade (the instructions will come with the set I believe). But if I wanted to get it really sharp a GATCO or any other similar system will not work I imagine? Maybe one of those $300 Wicked Edge systems or something even more pricey, but not a normal consumer model?
Thanks for all the advise, will update with how this turns out.
The Canadian version of the South American river site had a few sharpeners but I think this Gatco is worth paying a little more for, I like how the guide sticks work.
That is a pretty annoying rule, no mentioning dealers that are not affiliated with this forum. And who is going to memorise the allowed dealers anyways.
I think I will just cave and get a full set, this owning a knife thing is turning out to be more expensive than I expected but it is not like there are other things I would rather spend my money on.
I was wondering why different sets give different instructions for use? Is it just marketing? GATCO stresses their "4-point system" where you just go straight up (perpendicular to the blade edge) the blade move over and do it again (NO sweeping motion). Most others tell you to use a sweeping motion so you have one continuous motion for most or all of the blade. Also some systems look like they use identical hones but one company will advertise dry use and another will say always use their specially designed oil.
Also one last questions. What about systems for really big blades. I have a Kukri ordered, and it comes with its own speciality sharpening system that has you use some dull tiny knife thing to sharpen your blade (the instructions will come with the set I believe). But if I wanted to get it really sharp a GATCO or any other similar system will not work I imagine? Maybe one of those $300 Wicked Edge systems or something even more pricey, but not a normal consumer model?
Thanks for all the advise, will update with how this turns out.
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The recommended techniques from the mfrs. are just that: recommendations. I wouldn't worry too much about that. In the early, heavy grinding stages, pretty much anything works (back & forth, sweeping, whatever). My preference in the finishing stages is to use very light edge-leading strokes, focusing on small sections of the edge at a time.
And you really don't need to use oil on them, if you choose not to. With diamond, water works as well as anything (or water + dish detergent like Dawn/Ivory/etc). The water alternatives are obviously easier to clean up, afterwards. The 'special' oils marketed by some mfrs are usually just mineral oil anyway. It's just a more profitable way to sell it, in small quantity at a higher margin.
For really large blades, guided sharpeners can work if the clamp is moved between different sections of the blade. But, that's obviously awkward, and might not be worth the trouble. You might search a little bit here, for threads on sharpening machetes and similar blades. Many here are more familiar with those than myself (haven't used them), and some have come up with some clever solutions, I'm sure.
David
And you really don't need to use oil on them, if you choose not to. With diamond, water works as well as anything (or water + dish detergent like Dawn/Ivory/etc). The water alternatives are obviously easier to clean up, afterwards. The 'special' oils marketed by some mfrs are usually just mineral oil anyway. It's just a more profitable way to sell it, in small quantity at a higher margin.
For really large blades, guided sharpeners can work if the clamp is moved between different sections of the blade. But, that's obviously awkward, and might not be worth the trouble. You might search a little bit here, for threads on sharpening machetes and similar blades. Many here are more familiar with those than myself (haven't used them), and some have come up with some clever solutions, I'm sure.
David
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Wisnoskij,I don't have much in the way of help on how to fix your knife.I wanted to let you kow I picked up a kabar BK14 not to long ago with pretty much the same problem.I did get it shaving sharp but after one day of carry and cutting 2 limes it lost its edge. I have thrown it in the trash,dug it back out ,called it names and given thought to sending it back to kabar.I have one of kabar's plastic sheaths and it has a lot of rattle, makes me wonder if the blade rattling around is jacking the edge up. Very frustating to say the least!I wish you luck.
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Kabars 1095cv is going to be harder than one might expect. When a maker does a quality heat treatment the steel is harder to grind and will be more sensitive to how sloppy the sharpening is. 1095cv can and will perform with both a coarse and fine polished edge but will fail miserably if used for a task with the wrong type of edge. For most general cutting tasks the fine side of a combo Norton oil stone or a 1000 grit waterstone is a ideal choice, it gives the right amount of "tooth" to the edge for good slicing performance. If used for chopping or wood carving a higher polish can provide smoother cutting and longer edge retention for the given task.
I would recommend you buy a stone or two, it will make things simple and you will not have issues with different style blades. It just takes a little practice and before long you too will be posting about your sharp edges and how you make them. For now, try and keep it simple, it will make things easier.
I would recommend you buy a stone or two, it will make things simple and you will not have issues with different style blades. It just takes a little practice and before long you too will be posting about your sharp edges and how you make them. For now, try and keep it simple, it will make things easier.
So you are saying that too good of an edge will have a negative effect on its performance? because of its hardness or just in general?
but 1000 grit is almost a polished edge from all I have seen. A fine stone is often something like 600 grit, with the absolute max polishing available often being labeled as 1200 (approximate values gleamed in particular from the GATCO system). The Gatco labels 320 Grit as fine for example.
I hope my problem is just my horrible sharpening technique. I just looked up the warranty info and apparently I am supposed to pay for shipping any defective blade back.
but 1000 grit is almost a polished edge from all I have seen. A fine stone is often something like 600 grit, with the absolute max polishing available often being labeled as 1200 (approximate values gleamed in particular from the GATCO system). The Gatco labels 320 Grit as fine for example.
I hope my problem is just my horrible sharpening technique. I just looked up the warranty info and apparently I am supposed to pay for shipping any defective blade back.
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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I highly doubt you have a defective blade, its not common.
Yes, the wrong edge type will have negative affects on performance. The hardness plays a part in what types of edges and edge geometrys a specific blade can handle but not in the way you are thinking.
A 1k stone in Japanese waterstones is around 15 microns in particle size, a 1k gatco is likely very different.
Not all grit is the same. So don't just go by numbers.
I recommend benchstones because its simple with not much to go wrong, look into the Norton combo India or for more wear resistant steels the silicon carbide combo stone.
Yes, the wrong edge type will have negative affects on performance. The hardness plays a part in what types of edges and edge geometrys a specific blade can handle but not in the way you are thinking.
A 1k stone in Japanese waterstones is around 15 microns in particle size, a 1k gatco is likely very different.
Not all grit is the same. So don't just go by numbers.
I recommend benchstones because its simple with not much to go wrong, look into the Norton combo India or for more wear resistant steels the silicon carbide combo stone.
Except that it did come completely dull, that is something I have absolute certainty of.
OK, but other than numbers I simply do not know how to tell much of a difference (but I think I am getting a better understanding).
Should I only finish with the fine diamond stone in your opinion? As long as was not planing to use the knife for something it very much is not designed for (wood working, shaving, cutting paper very easily).
If I understand the theory, would it possibly be adventurous to go from the fine diamond (so it has a little tooth), and skip all the way to the Ultimate Finishing Ceramic Hone to polish the edge without removing the micro-teeth? Might make it last longer without taking a hit on the micro serration.
when you are going for this toothyness do you use a specific technique to sharpen? Like straight up and down (perpendicular to the edge), instead of a sweeping action, which would make less desirable tooth angles?
OK, but other than numbers I simply do not know how to tell much of a difference (but I think I am getting a better understanding).
Should I only finish with the fine diamond stone in your opinion? As long as was not planing to use the knife for something it very much is not designed for (wood working, shaving, cutting paper very easily).
If I understand the theory, would it possibly be adventurous to go from the fine diamond (so it has a little tooth), and skip all the way to the Ultimate Finishing Ceramic Hone to polish the edge without removing the micro-teeth? Might make it last longer without taking a hit on the micro serration.
when you are going for this toothyness do you use a specific technique to sharpen? Like straight up and down (perpendicular to the edge), instead of a sweeping action, which would make less desirable tooth angles?
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This has all piqued my curiosity. So, just to confirm (hopefully), I sent off an email to Saint-Gobain Abrasives (apparently the current owner of the Norton Abrasives brand) to ask them about it. If they actually respond, I'll post it here.
I haven't used one of these economy stones, but now I'm all the more interested. If it seems to perform so much like a SiC stone, even if it may be AlOx, that seems like a great deal for $6 spent.
David
Got some updates from Saint-Gobain, re: the Norton 'Economy' stone (product code 87933), which is listed in their product catalog as aluminum oxide (linked in one of my posts, earlier in this thread). Seeing how this topic has already sort of taken this particular thread off-topic, I posted this new info in another new thread, here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...e-feedback-from-manufacturer-re-abrasive-type
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For years I have been buying the 11 1/2"X2 1/2"X 1/2" Norton stones for my triangular prism oilbath set up. The price of the stones has been increasing steadily, but the cost of the Corundum (Al2O3) and Carborundum (SiC) stones was always identical. The SiC stones were gray and coarse. The Al2O3 (India) stones were yellow and finer grained. The 3 stones that came with the set were 100 grit SiC (Crystalon), 220 grit SiC (Crystalon), and 320 grit Al2O3 (Fine India). I haven't run into a Norton economy stone, but it may be an import. I see SiC combination (2 grits) stones at the flea market for $2.00 BNIB.
Got my GATCO sharpener. The box was actually somewhat damaged so I plan on returning it, but I did not notice before I sharpened a few knives.
Got a kitchen knife ultra sharp with a 22 degree angle. Cut through paper nice and I did not realise that bread knives were only ever needed if you don't keep your normal knives sharp. But I had heard of testing a blade on your arm hair, and producing a hair popping edge, the blade did not seem even close to sharp enough to cut a hair easily.
I sharpened a small hunting knife to a 25 degree. It is a thick blade but does paper fine, but it still tears at times without the right angle of cutting. Sharper than I have ever gotten it before, that is for sure.
I did the USMC blade last, to 30 degrees. And only did it to the medium grit, as it was suggested that some coarseness would be good (and I had just noticed that the kit might need to be returned). It got to be about as sharp as I am used to my hunting knife being. It looks like it should perform great.
Still I am not impressed with the KABAR USMC knife. I am sure they used to produce a quality blade, but I have a few issues with their current efforts.
The new material they use for the top of the handle significantly mars the leather, even just the first time you put it in. Eventually it will wear a hole through it and it will have to be replace (I imagine something like a year or two under heavy use) and in the meantime I have had an ugly sheath since I first unsuspectingly put my blade into the sheath for the first time. (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/886178-short-kabar-and-mark-I-handles)
And my sheath came clearly damaged, and is not wearing well as all.
The leather handle got a chip out of it the very first time I strapped it on, for no acceptable reason. I do not think that the edges should be so sharp on the leather handle, it seems like it is very easy to damage.
So it is pretty, at least if you never use it, and the history of the blade is nice. But its prettiness is not as hardy as I would of liked, and I think the sheath will quite quickly start suffering from signification structural damage.
Got a kitchen knife ultra sharp with a 22 degree angle. Cut through paper nice and I did not realise that bread knives were only ever needed if you don't keep your normal knives sharp. But I had heard of testing a blade on your arm hair, and producing a hair popping edge, the blade did not seem even close to sharp enough to cut a hair easily.
I sharpened a small hunting knife to a 25 degree. It is a thick blade but does paper fine, but it still tears at times without the right angle of cutting. Sharper than I have ever gotten it before, that is for sure.
I did the USMC blade last, to 30 degrees. And only did it to the medium grit, as it was suggested that some coarseness would be good (and I had just noticed that the kit might need to be returned). It got to be about as sharp as I am used to my hunting knife being. It looks like it should perform great.
Still I am not impressed with the KABAR USMC knife. I am sure they used to produce a quality blade, but I have a few issues with their current efforts.
The new material they use for the top of the handle significantly mars the leather, even just the first time you put it in. Eventually it will wear a hole through it and it will have to be replace (I imagine something like a year or two under heavy use) and in the meantime I have had an ugly sheath since I first unsuspectingly put my blade into the sheath for the first time. (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/886178-short-kabar-and-mark-I-handles)
And my sheath came clearly damaged, and is not wearing well as all.
The leather handle got a chip out of it the very first time I strapped it on, for no acceptable reason. I do not think that the edges should be so sharp on the leather handle, it seems like it is very easy to damage.
So it is pretty, at least if you never use it, and the history of the blade is nice. But its prettiness is not as hardy as I would of liked, and I think the sheath will quite quickly start suffering from signification structural damage.