Kamidog got him a Bois d'Arc self bow! What now?

[ndoghouse]

Yep! Another hobby that requires shootin sumpin to have fun and I like it Last weekend I went to a knap-in on the Bayou near Lake Charles LA and we usually put up a bunch of points (arrowheads etc.) and primitive stuff to generate funds to help pay for the event. Anywaz last year I bid on a Bois d'Arc self bow and when It got to $145 clams I thought I had won it. Somehow in the confusion i didnt realize that the high bid was someone elses and not mine and I lost it. Was kinda bummed. Well a year later the same guy built another and i had to go for it. Money was no object but It should have been Im getting it this year by god! It got to $60 and bidding slowed down and I thought it was mine for a minute there. Nope! I went up to $105 clams and it was mine! If yall know anything about these bows then you might find out just the stave to make them cost more than that. The maker "Rookie" is well known in his parts for the best Boyer around! I got real dang lucky!

Its about #45 from what he says. I havent measured it yet mainly cause I dont know what the heck im doing anyway but ill learn soon enuff I guess. Bois d'Arc wood by the way is also known as Osage Orange. So far I learned how to string it and a few what to do and what not to do's but not much more.

He makes his own strings too.

The end there is left thick so there is little flex at the ends. Keeps the string from coming off they say.

Bees waxed string.

Some cool looking wood! Sure would make a nice Khukri handle too. Supposedly the stuff last for generations because of the oils in it.

Got me a bunch of river cane in a rock trade from a friend at the knap-in for making arrows. I got enough cane to wipe out the beaver population east of the Mississippi river if Pugs aint done it already! In the background of that last pic is another pile of longer ones for atlatl darts! Let me know if ya need some darts Pugs! Ill make ya some!

If any of you archers know of some spine data Id sure be interested to know what spine I need for #45. Im straightening a dozen now and when I get them straight ill measure the spine and see from there. I have thicker ones and thinner ones so I can make plenty of adjustments. I dont plan to use foreshafts for target practice and will fletch them with turkey feathers. Any tips and or abuse is surely welcome. Its been forty years since I pulled a string. Ill keep yall updated if I dont shoot myself first!

 

[pugs75]

Great looking bow, grats on bringing her home. Osage make some fine bows. Funny how you and I have the same likes..... I have been shooting bows for years, and a few years ago I made the move to traditional archery. The compounds are good but I got tired of all the gizmos for them, nothing like a stick, string and an arrow for fun. I mostly shoot horse bows and longbows. As far as spine data goes its a combo of your draw length and poundage of the bow. My bows are on the light side, like 40/45lbs, my draw length is about 29 inches and I cut my arrows at about 30/31 inches. My arrows are spined at 50/55 lbs and shoot very well for me. Dem beavers are still around man, I aint got em all yet, but im working on it.

 

[Bigbore577]

Beavers? About 15 years ago while hunting moose in NW Saskatchewan right where it meets Alberta and the NW Territories my Indian friends and I happened across one that was a real problem. Crafty little devil, able to create lakes and muskeg where it shouldn't exist. I'll refrain from the details, just simple math. Beaver + .375 H&H = Pink Mist.

 

[ndoghouse]

Great looking bow, grats on bringing her home. Osage make some fine bows. Funny how you and I have the same likes..... I have been shooting bows for years, and a few years ago I made the move to traditional archery. The compounds are good but I got tired of all the gizmos for them, nothing like a stick, string and an arrow for fun. I mostly shoot horse bows and longbows. As far as spine data goes its a combo of your draw length and poundage of the bow. My bows are on the light side, like 40/45lbs, my draw length is about 29 inches and I cut my arrows at about 30/31 inches. My arrows are spined at 50/55 lbs and shoot very well for me. Dem beavers are still around man, I aint got em all yet, but im working on it.

Thats awesome Pugs! Ill get my length dialed in after I get them straightened and measure the spine. Sounds like we are very close in specs. Sure is different than atlatl. Im used to measuring 5-7 pounds. 50-55 sounds like a bunch. Hmmm? come to think of it I might need to get me another scale. Mine dont go beyond 6 pounds. Thanks for that info sir! I cant wait to shoot it! What kind of weight do you use for tips? I know that must have some effect on spine and oscillation and all that technical stuff. My friend tells me he uses a screw and adjust his by adding a nut or two on the the screw. He just tapes the screw/nut on the tip. Thats practice only of course. Ill use stone points for hunting.

 

[Shavru]

Pugs is right. But at least as important is how close to centershot the bow is. AND don't forget the weight of the points (I assume you plan to knap them? so they will actually act like fletchings on the front of the arrow and exacerbate whatever you have going on) and the type of fletching... LOL the whole setup. But rough starting point is always a spine very close to the same as the bow weight, so I would say start with .47" flex if you are planning about 28" pull. Then tune from there to account for the things Pugs and I mentioned. I prefer bare plane tuning. But there are a couple options to read up on and decide about. Have fun! that is the only real requirement.

 

[ndoghouse]

Pugs is right. But at least as important is how close to centershot the bow is.

Ive not a clue what you mean here darling! Thank you mam! You might have to spain that one to me. There is a center mark he made i assumed it was for tillering? Balance? We didnt have much time to talk but he told me as much as he could about the bow before we had to go our way.

AND don't forget the weight of the points (I assume you plan to knap them? so they will actually act like fletchings on the front of the arrow and exacerbate whatever you have going on) and the type of fletching... LOL the whole setup.

Well i havent considered the effect of the point acting like fletching but that would definitely make a whole bunch of sense! Wow! Thats some great info Shav!
How bout some armor piercing three sided point like this (Top one)? My friend made that one last weekend. They used thick leather armor back then but these would do the trick! The other is a stone hand chiesel. He is an awesome knapper in fact on of the best ever. He can make all the types of danish daggers like TC Waldorf and all the other world class fellas. I suspect you would need an 80# Plus to propel that thing?

But rough starting point is always a spine very close to the same as the bow weight, so I would say start with .47" flex if you are planning about 28" pull. Then tune from there to account for the things Pugs and I mentioned. I prefer bare plane tuning. But there are a couple options to read up on and decide about. Have fun! that is the only real requirement.

bare plane tuning? I still gotta figure out some of yalls terminology. Ive been reading and youtubing as much as I can but The waters deep and I still aint found the bottom I shouldda known you would be an experienced archer. Thank you for all your help mam! Ill post a humorous video of my first attempt at my target when I get my arrows done. I got the nodes sanded and almost straight so fletching will be soon. I have plenty of questions there too. Im assuming they are a lot like atlatl darts and you have to line up the spine flex and put your "colored" feather where needed. Lots to learn!

 

[pugs75]

I will usually use a 125 gr field tip. my arrows fly nice with them, when it comes to trad archery you are not going to get the super light arrows like a compound. The trad bows use a slightly heavier arrow as we dont have the speed like the other. I think Shavru might be talking about is bare shafting your arrow for tuning the bow, this is done by shooting your arrow shaft bare no fetching, you have to get the bow tuned by adjusting your tiller which is the distance between the string and the center point of the bow, this is done by turning the bow string untill you get the tiller you want, by the looks of it you will be shooting the arrow off your hand? once you have a nock point set you can shoot the bare shafts and see how they fly or how they hit your target, they should hit straight if not it could be the spine is to heavy or light or the bow is not tillered right. The maker might be able to give you an idea of the tiller height to start with. Sounds like alot but its pretty easy once you start doing it. Hope this helps ya a little.

 

[ndoghouse]

That makes sense Pugs. When you say bare shaft do you mean with a tip im assuming? Id think you would need the weight to balance the spine action? Ill get some field points today and hopefully finish about half dozen arrows. I still got to do one more round of straightening.
So you turn the string to shorten it which increases the distance between the bow center and string. I think I got ya. I will be shooting off my hand. Ill probably wrap some deer skin for the handle but thats about it. Thx again Pugs:thumbup:

 

[pugs75]

That makes sense Pugs. When you say bare shaft do you mean with a tip im assuming? Id think you would need the weight to balance the spine action? Ill get some field points today and hopefully finish about half dozen arrows. I still got to do one more round of straightening.
So you turn the string to shorten it which increases the distance between the bow center and string. I think I got ya. I will be shooting off my hand. Ill probably wrap some deer skin for the handle but thats about it. Thx again Pugs:thumbup:

Yes you will put the field points on, and yes you turn the string to increase or decrease the distance, some bows like 7-8 inches of tiller but you have to find the sweet spot. A wrap is a good idea plus when shooting off your hand you might want to wear a thin glove as the fletching can cut your hand.

 

[Shavru]

NDog, Bare shaft planing is a tuning is as Pugs says without fletching. Not without the tip, yes you would want to use a field point tip. Let me see if I can edit and plagiarize a description for you:


Bare shaft planing determines adjustments based on bare shaft groups in relation to identical fletched shafts.

an arrow balances forward of center, and if everything is perfect, fletching is not required for accurate arrow flight. A well tuned shaft always goes where it's pointed, fletched or not.

To get started, it's easiest if you have at least several close to correct sized shafts and several above and below the recommended size also. Your bow should be set up exactly the way you intend to shoot.

Install field tips of the same weight as the arrowheads you want to shoot if you can. If you are stuck with only one size shaft, you may be forced to shoot tips heavier or lighter than your desire. NEVER BARE SHAFT BROADHEADS! Field tips/target points only. Broadheads will act like fletching on the wrong end and who knows WHERE the arrow may fly.

Now to get started, step back 15 or so yards and start shooting 3 or 4 bare shafts mixed with 3 or 4 fletched shafts (make them as closely similar fletching as possible) aiming for a spot. Odds are they are not going to fly very well so we need to start making adjustments to straighten them out.

You are going to make adjustments based on where the groups are in relation to each other, not on whether the nocks are kicking one way or another. We want to take care of any up/down problems first. If the majority of your bare shafts are grouping high or low of where the majority of your fletched arrows are, the nock point needs to be adjusted.

Ignore left and right problems at this time. If your bare shafts are grouping lower than your fletched shafts, lower your nock point a tiny bit, maybe 1/32" and shoot several more arrows. If you lower your nock point all the way to zero and they are still hitting low, your nock point was too low to start with and the back of the arrow is "kicking" off the shelf, giving a "low" indication! If they impact (group) higher, raise your nock point.

Once your bare shafts are grouping close up/down with the fletched shafts, it's time to work on any left/right problems. If the majority of your bare shafts are impacting (grouping) left of the majority of your fletched shafts, your arrows are too stiff.

To correct this you have several options. The easiest is to increase point weight one step and try again. You said you were shooting off you hand. So I am going to assume the arrow is going to be off to one side or the other so you will not be able to adjust centershot and will have to adapt the tuning to how far off center the arrow is at rest.

It's also possible you may never get good flight if they are way too stiff and you will be forced to get new shafts of a weaker spine. Hopefully that won't be the case. If the majority of your bare shafts impact (group) right of your fletched shafts, they are too weak. Reduce your tip weight and try again, or build out your arrow rest further away from centershot. You can shorten your arrows 1/2" at a time which will make the arrow stiffer. Again if the problem can not be corrected, new shafts of a higher spine may be needed.

Remember shoot many shots mixing bare and fletched shafts and average the relationship between the groups, don't get lazy and base a change on 1 or 2 shots. For example if 5 bare shaft shots went left of the fletched shafts, and one went right, adjust for a shooting left indication. Change only one thing at a time and evaluate the results.

Any changes you make to the bare shafts, make the same changes to the fletched shafts! The bare and fletched shafts must be identical. Once you are getting fairly satisfied, step back to 20 yards and start shooting several fletched shafts and bare shafts....Repeat the tuning process starting with nock point adjustments.

A properly tuned set up, bare shafts and fletched shafts will group together out to 30 yards or more. Expect the bare shaft groups to be somewhat larger then the fletched groups for obvious reasons! The better your form is, the tighter the groups will be and the farther away you can maintain good groups, and finer tuning can be accomplished.

The most forgiving arrow to shoot will actually show a slightly weak/slightly high nock point indication. In other words, at 20 yds or more, bare shafts grouping a little low and right is perfect because fletching makes a shaft react slightly stiffer.

 

[Bookie]

Kamidog, Nice piece of hedge you got there! You would have liked T C Waldorf's mentor and if you like Waldorf's daggers, you'd simply love Axel's. The man was amazing. Some of his fish hooks were smaller than one of our silver 3 cent pieces and absolutely perfect. One of his daggers had a decorated blade! We have one of Axel Jorgensen's last pieces on our book shelf and I'm really thankful he took time to show me how to make it. Wanna see a pic of it?

Hi Pugs! Glad to see you're still among the living....that pair of pants you made for me, Amigo, must have been sewn with iron. The sheath for that khuk is still looking like a million dollars.

 

[ndoghouse]

Kamidog, Nice piece of hedge you got there! You would have liked T C Waldorf's mentor and if you like Waldorf's daggers, you'd simply love Axel's. The man was amazing. Some of his fish hooks were smaller than one of our silver 3 cent pieces and absolutely perfect. One of his daggers had a decorated blade! We have one of Axel Jorgensen's last pieces on our book shelf and I'm really thankful he took time to show me how to make it. Wanna see a pic of it?
...

Well heck yeah id love to see a pic. Thx. Well any Mentor of TC Waldorf is Godly to me:thumbup: Mr Waldorfs Daggers are as good as they get. I give anything to have one of his!
I made a little fish hook a while back but mine need some more work. I got some more training last weekend on them so Ill try some more soon.

That one is my smallest yet.

Shavru: Thats some awesome info and just what I need to know. Ill make a set of both bare and fletched. OK now I know what a nocking point is and how to tie one so your post makes more sense. So im seeing basically up and down adjustments by moving knocking point and right/ left by adjusting spine and tip weight. Makes sense:thumbup: So do yall have a specific front of center (FOC) in % that you use? In Atlatl darts we use something like 5-12% or something like that to tune them. I assume arrows work the same way?

Pugs: Thanks for the glove idea. That definitely makes sense. I loose enuff blood flintknapping. I need to try to keep more of it on the same side of my skin. Works better that way

 

[Scara]

You know, my first experience with archery was when I was about eight. It was a Cub Scout day camp, and there was very little instruction on how to hit the target. I grew to dislike it very quickly, as during the entire two weeks I don't think I hit the target a single time. I wouldn't even consider archery after that. However, about half a decade ago I tried it out again at the Texas Renaissance Festival. That time I discovered I could actually hit the targets. Not necessarily perfect accuracy, but not bad. I would be willing to try it out again and actually learn how to do it. For some reason a wood bow instead of something modern and fancy sounds more appealing. I also wouldn't mind trying something like a Mongolian recurve.

 

[Shavru]

So do yall have a specific front of center (FOC) in % that you use? In Atlatl darts we use something like 5-12% or something like that to tune them. I assume arrows work the same way?

Hun that is one HECK of a question. Experts in Archery have a couple of topics that are not discussed at the dinner tables the perfect FOC is one of those because it always devolves into an argument and many calculations using "fuzzy" or "elastic" mathematics

But almost everyone agrees that a value range of 7-10% is the best for a good balance between arrow range and arrow stability though some go as high at 15% and you can get adequate flight at 18% but very few will go below 7%.
With the points you are going to use. I am curious what material you are planning for fletching?

 

[stwm]

I almost bought a bow off a guy for a song at a garage sale.
It was a nice wooden recurve. I still want it.
Does Martin Mamba mean anything?

 

[pugs75]

(Hi Pugs! Glad to see you're still among the living....that pair of pants you made for me, Amigo, must have been sewn with iron. The sheath for that khuk is still looking like a million dollars.)

Hello Brother Bookie, I am still around my friend just been quite. I am glad the sheath is serving you well, it all in the hand stitching.

 

[ndoghouse]

I almost bought a bow off a guy for a song at a garage sale.
It was a nice wooden recurve. I still want it.
Does Martin Mamba mean anything?

mmmm? Nope! You should try it again man! I wont feel so bad if someone is learning with me

Hun that is one HECK of a question. Experts in Archery have a couple of topics that are not discussed at the dinner tables the perfect FOC is one of those because it always devolves into an argument and many calculations using "fuzzy" or "elastic" mathematics

But almost everyone agrees that a value range of 7-10% is the best for a good balance between arrow range and arrow stability though some go as high at 15% and you can get adequate flight at 18% but very few will go below 7%.

From what I understand is depends on what your trying to do as far as distance, accuracy, etc. I can imagine it means more with a 7 foot dart than a 30 inch arrow shaft. That is a fine adjustment I prolly wont have to worry bout for a long time if ever. Just thought id ask

With the points you are going to use. I am curious what material you are planning for fletching?

Im planning on using turkey feathers. I went by the local sporting goods store and picked up some inserts and bullet points in a few different sizes since river cane i expect will vary greatly. I noticed they make this heat shrink tubing like stuff with the fletching already installed. Quick install stuff. Ill stick with turkey fletching unless theres something better. I have used duct tape on my atlatl darts and really works well but it dont hold up very long. It gets pretty crinkled up after a while. I do think learning to build arrows will teach me a lot about how to build my darts too. Just from what you told me I think I need to do the same with my atlatl darts as far as bare darts vs fletched. It does seem like the FOC numbers are consistant with darts vs arrows tho. Thank you mam for all the great info. Ill have some catching up to do. My new Tarwar and Micro Cherokee Rose will slow me down a bit tonite tho

(Hi Pugs! Glad to see you're still among the living....that pair of pants you made for me, Amigo, must have been sewn with iron. The sheath for that khuk is still looking like a million dollars.)


Hello Brother Bookie, I am still around my friend just been quite. I am glad the sheath is serving you well, it all in the hand stitching.

A friend asked another friend about the stitching on a sheath you made him and he started explaining how they do it with a heavy duty sewing machine and all. I overheard him and had to correct him and tole him you did it by hand. He couldnt believe it was done by hand till I explained it too him. He was totally blown away it was hand stitched:thumbup:

BTW! Hows your atlatl darts coming? You throwing yet? Let me know if you need any parts or help!

 

[Shavru]

From what I understand is depends on what your trying to do as far as distance, accuracy, etc. I can imagine it means more with a 7 foot dart than a 30 inch arrow shaft. That is a fine adjustment I prolly wont have to worry bout for a long time if ever. Just thought id ask

Im planning on using turkey feathers. I went by the local sporting goods store and picked up some inserts and bullet points in a few different sizes since river cane i expect will vary greatly. I noticed they make this heat shrink tubing like stuff with the fletching already installed. Quick install stuff. Ill stick with turkey fletching unless theres something better. I have used duct tape on my atlatl darts and really works well but it dont hold up very long. It gets pretty crinkled up after a while. I do think learning to build arrows will teach me a lot about how to build my darts too. Just from what you told me I think I need to do the same with my atlatl darts as far as bare darts vs fletched. It does seem like the FOC numbers are consistant with darts vs arrows tho. Thank you mam for all the great info. Ill have some catching up to do. My new Tarwar and Micro Cherokee Rose will slow me down a bit tonite tho



A friend asked another friend about the stitching on a sheath you made him and he started explaining how they do it with a heavy duty sewing machine and all. I overheard him and had to correct him and tole him you did it by hand. He couldnt believe it was done by hand till I explained it too him. He was totally blown away it was hand stitched

Glad I could offer a starting point for your tuning. Hubby sometimes teases my by calling me Jane after the Jane weapons books, because he says I am walking weapons trivia encyclopedia. It's because years of doing military logistics sparked my interest in weapons and from that I developed an interest in learning to use all of them to the best I am capable of.

Pugs' hand stitching is so clean and even that I can see people thinking it is the result of a machine. But it is even more special because of the handmade with that level of skill LOVE my beaver tail sheath. Still my favorite carry blade.

 

[pugs75]

Why thank you Ndog and Shavru, Im glad it is still serving you well. My darts came out pretty good, I was throwing a bit, but alas my shoulder kinda blew out on me. Wont be throwing for a while or shooting my bow. Went to the doc wasn't good.

 

[ndoghouse]

Im fletching some arrows now and wondered if any of you guys know if it matters which direction you put the fletching with respect to the knock. Oh and what is the purpose of the odd colored feather? Is it to indicate spine flex direction. I do that on my atlatl darts but dont know if that goes for arrows too? Thanks in advance! Oh three fletches and using wild turkey feathers.

HELP!!! Shavru!!! Pugs!!!

Duhhhh! I bought three carbon arrows for the heck of it and the odd color is right angle to the nock. Wild guess is the odd one points away from the bow so the two fletchings on the other side dont rub on your bow so hard as it passes thru? Sounds goo to me... If it aint tru it ought to be?