Karambit vs Desperado

Originally posted by Samuel
Sounds like someone feels a little threatened by the popularity of a knife that he doesn't produce...
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It seemed that way to me as well. I must say that I am appalled by the blatant shots at Strider (see the Low Points: High Speed Operators section) in that newsletter..this is exactly the type of thing that has given Cold Steel a bad name...getting back on point, many of the arguments he makes against karambits are moot...again, he bases some of his arguments on his fighting style (which advocates distance)...not everyone fights that way.

Originally posted by sph3ric pyramid

I think kerambits have been around a sufficient duration of time to not be considered a "fad". You know, a few hundred years.

Remember that there are actually knives made outside of those appearing in Blade magazine.
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Couldn't have said it better myself! Yes, karambits have recently begun to hit the mainstream en masse (thanks to Steve Tarani, designers like Liong Mah, Emerson, and Strider) but they have been around for ages and they will continue to be around for ages. I believe Emerson referred to karambits as "the next balisong"...you never know, it could happen...

RL
 
I don't own a desperado, never will.

Have several karambits in folder and straight guise, one custom made by Dave Mosier on this forum.

I don't see it as having to decide which is better at defending ones self, here's why.

If I have to use the desperado troubling times, I'll use it to my advantage by defensive techniques that work well with it's design parameters.

If I have one of the karambits in hand during trouble, I'll revert to the techniques that work well with that blades parameters.

Each blade design, not just between these two but others as well has stengths and weaknesses. One should have the knowledge and ability to utilize the weapons to their utmost advantage. Concentrate on it's strengths and use it accordingly in a defensive posture.

One needs to adapt a weapons strengths to their advantage. This would of course mean one developed a minimal skills set with their chosen EDC for defensive use.

The two knives in question require different techniques to be effectively used to defend. If you are lavcking in one or both, neither will be of much use to you when it's crunch time.

If we are discussing what they might be capable of, thats different. Most people I know who carry a knife with defense in mind do not have any training, formal or otherwise, so it's really moot to discuss the advantages of either here, as one with no knowledge in their use will be more disadvantaged through that lack of knowledge than any design parameters of the objects in question.

On the flip side of that coin, if one has the knowledge of how to effectively utilize these weapons to their advantage, and can use the objects strengths to his/her advantage through practice and training, you only need adapt to the blade in your hand to overcome adversity.

It's not the knife that wins, it's the knowledge of how to best use the knifes overall parameters to their best advantage that will ultimately win during a confrontation.

Learn to use all types of weapons, don't limit yourself to one platform. Be well rounded in your knowledge of eachs use, only then will you be able to know which may work better for you personally.

Brownie
 
Lynn Thomson is a fool!

The only knife training this guy has attended is the all you can eat buffet at Sizzler and he telling folks what's wrong with age old designs like the Karambit and how his designs are the sh!t and far superior.

Not to mention Cold Steel has a complete lack of business ethics by blatantly ripping off other companies designs but Lynn Thomson is gonna tell such fine folks in the industry like Ernie Emerson, Jerry Hossom, Steve Tarani, and Mick Strider that they are pathetic wannabes with inferior products.

Lynn Thomson is a stain on the underwear of the knife industry and has no respect for the Guild. He will say and do anything to sell his sh!t knives.

In an honorable trade such as the knife industry there is no room for the likes of Lynn Thomson or Cold Steel.

Friends don't let friends buy Cold Steel knives. :barf:
 
Gotta side with the Wolf on this one. :D There IS a reason that kerambit has been around for several hundred years. It's an effective weapon and also an effective tool.

When I first read this thread, I felt that jealousy was involved. CS doesn't make kerambit, does it ? Beside, according to the latest tactical knives magazine, Lynn Thompson only has experience in training (thousands of hours in training), not in actual combat. Perhaps he was engaged in knife confrontation once or twice, but remember, the people who invented the kerambit had to defend their lives everyday against enemy (colonization by European country). Go figure....thousand of practice hours v.s. every day actual combat...who you gonna put your faith into ?

I'm not dismissing the Desperado. I'm sure it can inflict good damage when used properly. Hell, even my baseball can.

A knife is good, a kerambit is good, a sword is good, even a baseball bat is good when it's there when you need it.

Beside, a good martial artist (or combatant) would not underestimate anything that might cause damage; including kerambit.

I like kerambit because of its menacing look, and the damage it can inflict when you swing it. You don't need special trainings/techniques when using kerambit. Any technique that involves punching can use kerambit for the additional damage.

Just my 2 cent.
 
Damn,

We've got a little venom spilling out here. BBWolf I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you that Lynn is in the right or hasn't done anything wrong. That'd be like you guys trying to convince me to buy a Kerambit. I still love the fact that he put this article out. It's exactly how I feel about the kerambit. Some specific points I disagree with:

Lynn Thomson is a fool!
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Dude makes more money than I do and I'm no fool so I guess he's doing something right. I got a quarter says he's got more money than you do too.


The only knife training this guy has attended is the all you can eat buffet at Sizzler
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He's running the Cold Steel training facility. Which also tells me he's doing something right.



what's wrong with age old designs like the Karambit
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Obscure and as you say.."old" I'm staying away from it because I believe it's a worthless fad. That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.




Not to mention Cold Steel has a complete lack of business ethics by blatantly ripping off other companies designs but Lynn Thomson is gonna tell such fine folks in the industry like Ernie Emerson, Jerry Hossom, Steve Tarani, and Mick Strider that they are pathetic wannabes with inferior products.
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Ok I'll give you the black talon thing they put out we all see that for a Spyderco rip off. Anything else?
I'm willing to agree that that particular knife definately gave CS a black eye but I'm not sure I know enough of Lynns background to say he has a complete lack of ethics.
My other objection is while he did discribe Strider knives to a "T" I don't think he ever mentioned Emerson, Hossom, or Tarani at all. Point of fact I dont think he ever mentioned anyones name.


And personally I like Cold Steel knives. I have never had one break on me so I'd never call them Sh!t. Your opinions are your own and if you don't like them that's your business.
The original point of this thread was Desperado vs. Kerambit

My vote is Desperado.
Not cause it's Cold Steel, but because of the reach and I love the handle. YMMV as they say. Pick one and get on with your life.
 
Although Mr. Thomson had a number of valid points about the kerambit, I found his logical reasoning totally undermined by his blatent disrespect for other knife producing proffessionals.

There was no doubt about who some of his comments were aimed at, but because of the lack of moral fiber did not permit the naming of names, Mr. Thomson has the advantage of indivdual denability of his remarks later if needed. This also aforded the luxery of no comeback on some of his more unsavoury and blatently untrue remarks (if we are thinking of the same person), because if refuted it is likely he was refering to the "other fella".

I think Mr. Thomson could take a leaf out of Sal Glesser's book and show more respect to other proffessionals. Despite repeated provokation (an example close to this thread springs to mind), I have never heard him be anything than diginfied and proffessional, as Sal said he would rather sell his wears by advertising how good they are, rather than pointing out how bad someone else's product is.

Such a heavy post, and I haven't even had the first beer of the weekend yet ;)
 
Well, where to start.

"Dude makes more money than I do and I'm no fool so I guess he's doing something right. I got a quarter says he's got more money than you do too."

As far as Lynn Thomson making more money than I, give yourself a quarter, but lots of dishonest scumbags make more money than me. A persons wages have no bearing on a persons honor or integrity which Lynn Thomson lacks both.


"He's running the Cold Steel training facility. Which also tells me he's doing something right."

My remarks about his lack of non-training were unsubstantiated and unfounded. However let's be real for a moment, LT has not been in one single combat operation ever. Where does the man get off by putting down other knife makers who have? Also lets get real for just a sec, in an age of MANY training schools for knife, gun, combat, survival, grocery shopping, curtain making, and potato peeling, LT runs one school of a sea of many. This alone does not make you an automatic "expert" in the field. My cousin runs an auto repair shop in Backwater Texas, does this make him an automatic "expert" in the field of automotives?


Opinion of the Karambit.
"Obscure and as you say.."old" I'm staying away from it because I believe it's a worthless fad. That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it."

An opinion is one thing, I am not much of a Karambit fan myself as I lack the time and effort to properly train with one. However I do not damn the design and spew forth cheap ad's that damn it to obscurity cause LT does not like it. The Karambit works, plain and simple, ages of use prove that. Also I'll take Ernie Emerson's and Steve Tarani's opinion of a knife over LT's any day of the week and twice on Sundays, they are legitimate experts in the field.

"Ok I'll give you the black talon thing they put out we all see that for a Spyderco rip off. Anything else?
I'm willing to agree that that particular knife definitely gave CS a black eye but I'm not sure I know enough of Lynns background to say he has a complete lack of ethics.
My other objection is while he did describe Strider knives to a "T" I don't think he ever mentioned Emerson, Hossom, or Tarani at all. Point of fact I don't think he ever mentioned anyones name."

CS has directly ripped off designs from American Tomahawk Company and claim that they sell and manufacture the original Vietnam Tomahawk. Also a cheap knock-off of Tom Mayo's work is apparent in their "proof" video. Forgive me for not having exact model numbers from Cold Steel's line up but I have not bought nor looked at their sh!t knives in a long time. His statement in the Karambit article about a collection of people (endorsed by Blade Magazine) are trying to pawn off an obscure Indonesian knife is a direct slap in the face to Ernie Emerson and Steve Tarani. His low points article while looks almost specifically geared at Mick Strider and Duane Dwyer, LT says that all these "dogs" who pretend to sell a knife based on Military endorsement are despised by him as they are little more than con artists, this would include such fine folks as Ernie Emerson, Mick Strider, Jerry Hossom, and a host of others. Whether you want to admit it or not Lynn Thomson is considered to be a joke in the knife industry and well hated for his business practices, Like I said above, in an honorable trade like the knife industry there is no room for an dishonorable jerk.


All of this however is not just what I base my opinion on. I have had my own experiences with Cold Steel's sh!t knives and my experience with them can be found here:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2297998#post2297998
 
I didn't read the whole thread here so forgive me if I am restating old points.
Early on in this thread there is a picture of the Kerambit in the "extended" position. Is that really a suggested grip for a knife fight? It CAN'T be.. that's crazy.
How could you possibly get any leverage from that grip? The blade would rotate on your index finger if it came in contact with the target. I would take a straight fixed blade over that thing any day. Hell i'd take a FOLDER over that!
The Kerambit may have been around for hundreds of years, but this new influx of Kerambits from all sorts of makers is simply the discovery of it. Where were all the Kerambits 10 years ago? Did knifemakers and knife fighters all over the world suddenly realize the "amazing" potential of a Kerambit as a fighter after the hundreds of years that it's been around? Of course not. It's a new swing on an old idea, and knife makers will do anything to sell it to you because there are no more blade styles to push. This is a step sideways for knives. And a step backwards for knife fighting.
 
For the reference I am no Cold Steel "fan", I do disagree with certain things in their marketing, attacking other makers and copanies and such. However I own few pieces from CS. For the price they offer good performance. I don't think it's fair to totally trash them. AFAIK they did quite a few innovative things earlier.

Originally posted by Big Bad Wolf
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A persons wages have no bearing on a persons honor or integrity which Lynn Thomson lacks both.
Agree, but that doesn't make them or LT fools, which is different point.

My remarks about his lack of non-training were unsubstantiated and unfounded. However let's be real for a moment, LT has not been in one single combat operation ever.
I donno how much knife training different military branches get, but overall, how many times they are using their knives in actual combat? Especially these days when US army is so hi tech. I think a person who dedicates his time to knife training could get more than that.

As of the Kerambit - this thread was about desperado vs. Kerambit and I think desperado wins, expecially for untrained ppl, simply because of the reach. I donno what'd it look like if one has comparable kerambit, then it's skills I guess. Although as noted in this thread and in that riposte article, in extended position it's hard to believe kerambit is useful.
 
Everyone has opinions and I'm not saying that Gator97 or Chambers are wrong, but I'm calling a spade a spade and have posted my point of view with my previous posts about Lynn Thomson.

Now back to the topic at hand:

csstoreonline_1760_5710717



or...


str-kerambit.jpg



Now obviously the Karambit needs at least some minimal training to become real effective with it, but even without training you still have a knife with superior retention and ergonomics.

The lack of ergonomics on the Desperado looks frightening to me. The handle and grip kinda reminds me of that black floating ball that measures the water level in my toilet tank.
 
Originally posted by Onikage

Early on in this thread there is a picture of the Kerambit in the "extended" position. Is that really a suggested grip for a knife fight? It CAN'T be.. that's crazy.
How could you possibly get any leverage from that grip? The blade would rotate on your index finger if it came in contact with the target. I would take a straight fixed blade over that thing any day. Hell i'd take a FOLDER over that!
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a karambit is not meant to be used like a bowie knife so you would not "go in" with the knife in the extended grip...by rotating the knife on your index finger, you can quickly move from extended to retracted...extended would be used in a hooking like strike to a soft target like the eyes, throat, or groin...it's hard to explain but great to see one in action.

here's an example http://www.emersonknives.com/videos/technique 1.mpg

RL
 
Here we have yet another hotly contested debate! Popcorn is hot and ready to go fetch a brewskie.
 
Let's lock up Ernest and Lynn in a room together with their chosen knives and see who wins. 'nuff said.

Although, I would still rather carry the desperado. Don't comment unless you've handled it, great ergonomics actually.
 
I'd have to see some other vid for the purpose of spinning the kerambit on the finger. There was no reason to move to the 'extended' grip for the technique in that vid. I don't see any particular need to put a ring on the end of my spyderhawk for something like that. Seems like a little extra flash, like a lot of the transition techniques in FMA.
 
I think Mr. Thomson could take a leaf out of Sal Glesser's book and show more respect to other proffessionals. Despite repeated provokation (an example close to this thread springs to mind), I have never heard him be anything than diginfied and proffessional, as Sal said he would rather sell his wears by advertising how good they are, rather than pointing out how bad someone else's product is.
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That right there says it all for me, because it's the truth. I'm most impressed by those who allow their work to stand on it's own merits. Lynn doesn't do this, and my limited experience with his products hasn't changed my mind. There are lots and lots of knives out there that fulfill my needs without having to support crap like CS.
 
I've a few of these types blades as stated previously [ the karambits ].

Obviously a hot topic with pronents on both sides making some valid points in my opinion.

The karambit is not a knife that is used like any other knife for obvious reasons when in reverse grip. The way you hold the knife in reverse grip and the design of the knife both contribute to it being very difficult to dislodge from the hand, as well, for any slippage with most other knives to some degree, where you need to release and regrip. In anyones book, that is a good, very good thing to have. Complete control of the blade at all times. The knife can be torgued laterally with as much pressure as your own hand strength will bear. For most people that will be sufficiently strong enough to have accomplished whatever the user was attempting to do.

That can not be said of any other coventional knife design I know of. Your clenched fist around any handle will not be as strong as your clenched fist with the index finger through the ring.

Advantage goes to the karambit for retention during severe use and strength of lateral stresses that can be produced to the extremes.

In untrained hands with no training, you would probably be better served using the karambit in the saber grip with the pinky finger through the ring in a clenched fist. With this handhold the karamnit acts every bit the equal to it's counterparts, the conventional knife forms, without the ring held also held in saber grip.

You do not use the convetional thrusts with most karambits due to the blades shape and the tips relative position to the center of the handle. A true stabbing blade will have the tip end at the centerline of the knife.

Instead you use slashing from various angles. The blade tip always leads and digs into the target with an initial thrust, burying itself as you follow through and ripping everything in it's path. The force and power thats generated to power through due to the design is above the capabilities of most other blades.

The backcut is devastating on a bowie, in a backcut the tip leads and digs in, the blade following through, the clip point ripping everything out in it's path, causing much more severe wounds. The karambit works essentially the same way.

It's bite is going to do more damage as it is ripping through and not slicing as a conventional knife will create. The wounds may not be as deep but there will be every bit as much damage.

Advantage goes to the karambit for it's ability to create more damage to tissue, tendons, cartiledge and veins by nature of it's natural backcutting qualities in normal use.

The Desperado has the length advantage and has the capability of deeper penetration which may lead to faster stops if the stab is to the correct area.

The problem I see with it's design is the handle and the relatively insecure grip it affords if it were used aggressively against targets that were moving around.

I believe that you are not going to torque this knife much in the hand before it moves in your clenched fist. It's the handles fault and one that could have been better executed to allow the blade to get some power behind it.

I'ts never a perfect world and the targets won't likely be standing still, you get part of the blade into him and he may twist and take the knife out of your hand.

There really is no comparison between them when it comes down to it. The karambit has most of the stengths I'm looking for in a defensive tool, the desperado does not.

The karambits main weakness is that most people want to hold the knife in reverse grip as it's designed to be, but do not have the background and foundation in any blade work, let alone the particular techniques used with this knife to augment it's strengths.

For ease of use between reverse grip karambit and the desperado, to a novice and one having no knowledge of the techniques needed to make it effective, the desperdao is the better choice probably.

Put the same novice into the saber grip with the karambit, the reverse happens. He then has near the same range as the other and a much more solid performer [ see all of the above ].

The extended position of the karambit should not even be discussed as an option for use during an altercation and it's use to defend yourself if you do not have the background and training to use it effectively.

Most people will not take the time or do not have the inclination to train in defensive knife though they carry some nice stuff.

If you are of that camp and do not have the inclination or a bladework background the desperado is the better choice probably.

Both will be effective in the end if you do your part. One will always outperform the other when there are two of anything.
In the end it's the users knowledge that dictates what will and will not be more effricient at it's task.

Brownie
 
Brownie0486,

Very well said.

The topic what is better Karambit vs Desperado is like asking what is better the 45 vs 357 mag.

In the end they both serve there purpose.

The real question is what are your plans with your blade choice.
i.e. hunting, fishing stuff or self defense??

They both have there strong points and weak points.

I have owned both, I will stick with the Karambit. Why?? cuase it fits my needs. The author of this topic will need to find what fits his need.

If your plans is for self defense type use. Then you better get some training, then figure out what blade will fit your needs.


As for Lynn Thompson artical. He should first take some training in the use of the Karambit then he might have a better understanding of the tool he is slamming on. As far as I am concerned Mr. Thompson is talking out his A$$.

Brian Everett
 
My question is:
Is the Kerambit too specialized? To myself seems that a lot of training is required to be able to use a Kerambit well. Whereas the average non-martial type would be able to pick up an average blade (not necessarily a desparado), let's say a Camillus CQB or Kabar and be much more effective with about 2 hours of training.
 
Originally posted by Walking Man
My question is:
Is the Kerambit too specialized? To myself seems that a lot of training is required to be able to use a Kerambit well. Whereas the average non-martial type would be able to pick up an average blade (not necessarily a desparado), let's say a Camillus CQB or Kabar and be much more effective with about 2 hours of training.
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Walking Man,

Yes, the Karambit is a diffrent tool vs a fix blade. Would it take years to learn the basic self defense part of it. NO. If you ever get a chance to train with Steve Tarani, you could learn alot from one of his seminars. I will also say that if you plan to use any edge tool as self defense tool you should get some training in it.

Brian
 
How are you supposed to use a kerambit ? Just grab it, and start punching like a madman. That's how easy to use a kerambit, but again, that's the basic technique. I mean, you won't have time to change grips when having a close quarter combat. From the regular to reverse grip, or vise versa. You wouldn't even have time to rotate the kerambit. Beside, all it takes is one single clean blow to enemy to win the fight. Why ? Because usually when the opponent sees his own blood, his morale will drop.

Reverse grip ? I don't think it's very effective, because it lacks the power to inflict deep wound. I usually like to move in close to the opponent, and stick the point and start 'slicing'. That's the most effective technique for me.

I just don't understand why it's so difficult to use a kerambit. It was designed to be the perfect every day weapon even for those who have minimal martial arts training. You might not be able to show 'cool techniques' like Emerson or Tarani, then again, I doubt you'll have time to use those cool techniques in a close combat situation. A real fight, will not last more than 1 minute (from my experience, and they were all bare hand fights). Imagine how fast it would take with sharp objects.

I love CS stuffs, but I despise the attitude that LT shows towards kerambit. I find it too disrespectful.
 
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