Karambit vs Desperado

Beluga wrote:
Beside, all it takes is one single clean blow to enemy to win the fight. Why ? Because usually when the opponent sees his own blood, his morale will drop.
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I´m sorry but could you tell where you found this information. I´m no blademaster or anything and I don´t want to stir up a fight. I´m just interested in you source on that one. The reason is that I´m very interested in all kinds of physical confrontation and I try to find as much info as I can. The info I have so far from internet sources and instructors with a lot of experience does not agree with the statement you made. I would be very happy if you could point me towards the source, please. :)

Re: Desperado vs. Kerambit

If I could choose what kind of Kerambit then my choice between the D and K would be the double edged Kerambit. Only because I believe it would match my type of training in MA. Close range with trapping/tapping moves.

brownie0486 wrote:
Each blade design, not just between these two but others as well has stengths and weaknesses. One should have the knowledge and ability to utilize the weapons to their utmost advantage. Concentrate on it's strengths and use it accordingly in a defensive posture.
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I agree and I thought this well written post would kill the thread.

/Colinz
 
From experience. I applied my hand to hand fight into knife confrontation. Usually, after the opponent takes a single clean blow (or see his blood in some cases), his movement becomes ineffective, his power drops. Perhaps the instructors have better opponent that I usually do, but I'd stick with what I know. I've been doing okay with what I know, so far.

Moreover, I don't think the opponent will want to continue the fight if he realize there's a large gash in his body.
 
I have carried a Desperado for about six years now. Never have carried a kerambit of any kind but I do have an associate who swears by them and with whom I've done some training/sparring. My personal impression is that the desperado is faster into action, more instinctive to use, simpler to use, and much much harder to disarm or lose. I think that the kerambit can be an effective weapon, but to be used to its full potential it requires much more training, both in terms of handling the blade and fighting style. All the Desperado requires is a little drawing practice, target cutting drills, and some basic knife training.

The kerambit does have the flexibility of its 'extended/retracted' grip positions, but I have to agree with most of Cold Steel's arguments on this subject. The Desperado is a fast and solid draw into either the natural/hammer grips or reverse/ice-pick grips, and works very well in them all. The only grip which does not work with the Desperado is the 'push dagger' type grip shown with it in the Cold Steel catalog and web page. I would also point out that a decent folding kerambit typically costs over $100 at this time whereas a Desperado can be found close to $40.

The only real benefit of a kerambit that I can see is the legality of a 2-3 inch blade over that of a larger knife. However, if I was worried about that I would still pick a smaller 'tactical' folder (Spyderco, CRKT, etc.) over a kerambit any day. I think time will show the kerambit to be an interesting gimmick, but not a superior cutting or defense tool.

The Desperado is not a perfect knife by any stretch. The improvements I would like to see after so many years of carry and use are:

(1) A better sheath. A thinner 'rim' or 'edge' around the outside of the sheath. Most importantly, the knife should ride slightly deeper in the sheath, so that little more than the 'egg' part of the grip sticks out. Also, the clip should be set higher, so that only the egg part is above the belt line. Conversely, a multi-position sheath would be an improvement as well.

(2) The option of a non-serrated edge. Much easier to maintain and keep sharp over time, especially without good ceramic rods or other sharpening media.

(3) A full flat or hollow grind on both sides of the blade, not a chisel ground blade.

(4) A sharpened top swedge - the last top inch or upswept hook of the blade should be sharpened.

(5) Thumb ridges should be ground into the top inch or two of the spine following the egg for those who like to grip with the thumb on the top edge or for utility purposes. I use natural grip mostly, where my thumb is alongside the blade, but I would still like to see these ridges put on. They are useful for maintaining control when switching grips or cutting angles.

Unfortunately, Cold Steel rarely seems to improve or upgrade their products after they are released, nor do they actively respond to customers suggestions, so I don't expect to see the Desperado change anytime soon. I know I'd be willing to pay $40-$60 more for the improvements, but like I said, this was my primary carry piece for many years.
 
From experience. I applied my hand to hand fight into knife confrontation. Usually, after the opponent takes a single clean blow (or see his blood in some cases), his movement becomes ineffective, his power drops. Perhaps the instructors have better opponent that I usually do, but I'd stick with what I know. I've been doing okay with what I know, so far.
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Thanks.

/Colinz
 
Originally posted by Moving Target
I have carried a Desperado for about six years now. Never have carried a kerambit of any kind but I do have an associate who swears by them and with whom I've done some training/sparring. My personal impression is that the desperado is faster into action, more instinctive to use, simpler to use, and much much harder to disarm or lose. I think that the kerambit can be an effective weapon, but to be used to its full potential it requires much more training, both in terms of handling the blade and fighting style. All the Desperado requires is a little drawing practice, target cutting drills, and some basic knife training.

The kerambit does have the flexibility of its 'extended/retracted' grip positions, but I have to agree with most of Cold Steel's arguments on this subject. The Desperado is a fast and solid draw into either the natural/hammer grips or reverse/ice-pick grips, and works very well in them all. The only grip which does not work with the Desperado is the 'push dagger' type grip shown with it in the Cold Steel catalog and web page. I would also point out that a decent folding kerambit typically costs over $100 at this time whereas a Desperado can be found close to $40.

The only real benefit of a kerambit that I can see is the legality of a 2-3 inch blade over that of a larger knife. However, if I was worried about that I would still pick a smaller 'tactical' folder (Spyderco, CRKT, etc.) over a kerambit any day. I think time will show the kerambit to be an interesting gimmick, but not a superior cutting or defense tool.

The Desperado is not a perfect knife by any stretch. The improvements I would like to see after so many years of carry and use are:

(1) A better sheath. A thinner 'rim' or 'edge' around the outside of the sheath. Most importantly, the knife should ride slightly deeper in the sheath, so that little more than the 'egg' part of the grip sticks out. Also, the clip should be set higher, so that only the egg part is above the belt line. Conversely, a multi-position sheath would be an improvement as well.

(2) The option of a non-serrated edge. Much easier to maintain and keep sharp over time, especially without good ceramic rods or other sharpening media.

(3) A full flat or hollow grind on both sides of the blade, not a chisel ground blade.

(4) A sharpened top swedge - the last top inch or upswept hook of the blade should be sharpened.

(5) Thumb ridges should be ground into the top inch or two of the spine following the egg for those who like to grip with the thumb on the top edge or for utility purposes. I use natural grip mostly, where my thumb is alongside the blade, but I would still like to see these ridges put on. They are useful for maintaining control when switching grips or cutting angles.

Unfortunately, Cold Steel rarely seems to improve or upgrade their products after they are released, nor do they actively respond to customers suggestions, so I don't expect to see the Desperado change anytime soon. I know I'd be willing to pay $40-$60 more for the improvements, but like I said, this was my primary carry piece for many years.
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I see it the same way. In fact, the only thing that keeps me from buying one is build quality. I would rather keep a 4" Rinaldi, Blackwood, Hossom, or Mineral Mountain knife before shelling out for a karambit.
 
Originally posted by Boink
Here we have yet another hotly contested debate! Popcorn is hot and ready to go fetch a brewskie.
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AHHHHH! Isn't this what BF is all about?
I don't have the experience to participate with an opinion but I sure am enjoying all the good reading!:)
 
Moving Target - interesting points, but you said:

"My personal impression is that the desperado is faster into action, more instinctive to use, simpler to use, and much much harder to disarm or lose."

I don't understand why it would be "much harder to [be] disarm[ed of] or lose" a Desperado vs. a kerambit, when the latter has a four-finger grip and also a fingerhole?
 
fishface5..

...I'm glad you brought that point up. What I meant to say is that, in my experience, the desperado is just as secure a grip as the kerambit, although not necessarily more so. Thank you for allowing me to clarify. You are correct to say that it seems counter-intuitive that the desperado's grip can be as secure as something with a finger hole. However, I have found that the desperado's design allows for greater stability and the ability to hold the edge and point in the proper angle, especially during full contact application against solid targets. The kerambit, on the other hand, performs poorly when its cutting meets some resistance, at least in the 'extended' position. As usual, YMMV.
 
I like both knives/types. The Desperado appealed to me because of the push type grip as an option (if that doesn't work, as mentioned...), it's overall compact size, and it's hooking & stabbing potential. Like the V Grande but for the person who wants a knife compact and fixed, I think it is reasonably original. I don't like the build quality, so I would probably make my own.

The Karambit I like mostly where used as a non-lethal blunt tool, not as a knife.

I looked at the emerson clips, and it reminds me of fancy gun handling in old westerns. I wouldn't want any part of the instructor, but I'd probably feel the same if he just had a regular knife. It may be all very purposeful.

When the Karanbit is used as an assist to boxing, it is hard to see that in the context of reasonable force. I mean it's easy if the guy you are closing with has an even more devastating weapon, but then I would rather have more knife (or whatever) also. It seems a little like cockfighting spurs, designed to maximize the damage, rather than control it and the fight. Whatever the laudible history of this knife style, it didn't evolve under our legal system. In court mentioning the long history of the thing in the Phillipines, or wherever, is going to require an understanding judge. You will be way better off with LT's fighting style, which goes back hundreds of years.

The point about blade length is good though.
 
Whatever the laudible history of this knife style, it didn't evolve under our legal system.

What part of the Karambit is illegal????

The karambit is a great utility tool. I have used mine to clean fish and other outdoor uses.

Remember anything in the hand is a tool, Anything in the brain is a weapon.



You will be way better off with LT's fighting style, which goes back hundreds of years.


The Karambit goes back thousands of years. Plus LT dosen't have a fighting style. He is using parts of the LAMECO system which is part of the Late GM E. Sulite style.

Brian Everett
 
I think the karambit is an excellent design, and one day I may purchase a fixed blade model. I don't go for all the flippy whippy, but I know the hawkbill design works especially well in reverse grip. It gets a lot of power behind it that way.
The extended grip, and the spinning cuts... with a 2" blade? Maybe if your opponent is naked or wearing a t-shirt. I'd like to see the spinning backcuts get through a denim jacket. It looks impressive, though.
The only thing I'll agree with Lynn Thompson on is that distance between you and your opponent is good. The reach on the Desperado is an advantage. I'd take a Bowie over either, personally. ;)
 
Originally posted by Randal16-1
Whatever the laudible history of this knife style, it didn't evolve under our legal system.

What part of the Karambit is illegal????

The karambit is a great utility tool. I have used mine to clean fish and other outdoor uses.

Remember anything in the hand is a tool, Anything in the brain is a weapon.
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The possibilty of creating several slashing/ripping wounds with the kbit won't look as good in court when arguing a defensive nature to your actions. Kind of how some people think the biomechanical cutting advocated by Bram Frank would look like you were slicing up the BGs arms while he was holding them up to defend himself from your attack. That's a whole 'judged by 12, carried by 6' debate.
 
You got it HH, the design is fine.

I was pretty obviously refering to the boxing with the blade style, or as you point out various restraint styles, where the standard techniques may appear like excessive force.

LT's main point being keep them away from you, and don't get close. If a guy is such a master of defence that he can slip right inside, and land multiple blows at will, then it's hard to see how he is really threatened in the attack.

Sure Karambit goes back thousands of years (that would be an interesting documentation for a style we just learned about in the last few years), it just goes back thousands of years on the wrong side of the collonial devide. There are examples of prominent americans, at least one president (?) dueling, but no brawls with Karanbits as far as I know.

There has been a certain amount of dismay in the south over newly arrived folks with religions that include animal sacrifice, you know chicken killing and such. If PETE gets you in a lawsuit for cruelty, you are going to have a much easier time defending eating the thanksgiving turkey than slaughtering live chickens (though it may be fine in either case). Cultural biases may be unfortunate, but it's just another example of something you can exploit for your own good.

In the interest of fairness, LT also suggest eye gouging, and stabing through the teeth into the mouth... Not the nice theme I was refering to. These things only happen by "accident" in a real fight...
 
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