katars/kattars....

Thanks for info, Beo. Linguistis is NOT my area of expertise -- not that ANY area is.

Here's a little more grist for your mill.

When I was living in Mamou, LA in the heart of Cajun country some linguistic experts from Paris came to see what the Cajuns had done to the French language over the many years. They couldn't understand the Cajun spoken French but the literate Cajuns could write French almost flawlessly.

I am personally responsible for courrupting the name of the little place where BirGorkha sits. I asked the kamis the name of the place and what I heard was Surya Benai. Sunshine Place roughly translated. So, that's what I still call it -- wrongly. Our duly registered government business license says we are located in Suryabinayak.

What I observed personally in Nepal is final consonants often disappeared -- chakma is a familiar example. You see this word commonly written as chakma or chakmak. Initial consonants, v & b are often interchanged as are f & p, and a couple of others.
 
Originally posted by Dave K
Jesus.

That is something else.

I am currently building a pine model katar but I doubt it would be able to go through an elephant's skull.

Of course, elephants are very intelligent creatures and to do such a thing would be highly impolite, to say the least.

-Dave
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DAYUM!!!!!!!
Dave's statement along with the quote in Stone's book brought home to me what the ancient battles with peoples who had elephants must have been like!!!!!!!!
DAYUM!!!!!!!
Can you even imagine what it would have been like to have faced such an animal as an elephant dressed up for war?
The only thing I can think of is that the king or general behind you must have had some hellacious means of torture they would have brought to you that was much worse than facing the elephants had you not stood your ground rather than have ran screaming for your life from such beasts dressed for war.
The screams and mad thrashing from wounded elephants must have been almost deafening I would think, put along side the screams of wounded men and horses along with the fury and sounds of battle the din itself had to be the most horrible of horrifying sound.
God the thoughts of such a thing gives me a full body shiver!!!!!!!
Thinking about such a thing makes me wonder if I would of shamed myself and family, but then on the other hand I suppose it wasn't much worse than having a line of tanks coming right at you at 60 mph.:eek:
There's just something about bladed weapons and elephants over rifles and tanks that to me is more frightening.
 
Yvsa,

What has always intrigued me is the sound of battle. Before rifels and whatnot the only noise most people knew was what you hear when you go camping, a penetrateing silence filled with the russle of the wind, the chirp of insects, and the songs of birds.

The scenes in movies where thousands of men marched into battle were scenes of considerable intimidation. Few knew of such sounds, or had ever seen a gathering of so many people.

WWI vets wrote about growing up on farms and then learning of war. They would speak of the noise, the machine guns, the artillary, the sounds of misery.

I believe that even with what we see, what we hear is just as important if not more so, imbedded deep within our memory. Men have spoken of the screams of pain much longer than the sight of the dead. I believe it will always be that way.

(Sorry, morbid post:( , but yeah Elephants would not be a good thing when surveying an enemys troops.):)
 
Rather then warrior elephants and katars I'll take Kareena in absolute silence -- isolated log cabin, fireplace, bear rug -- and a few bottles of Heineken keeping cool in the pantry.
 
Beoram

In the very beginning part of "Asoka" - I noticed there is a short episod where King Bindusara told Asoka about the evil of his sword ... he used the word KORA (ie. in Hindi) for sword - it is a double edged sword while the HI Kora which is a Nepali version is a single edged machete like sword ... any explaination about it.
 
Originally posted by mohd
Beoram

In the very beginning part of "Asoka" - I noticed there is a short episod where King Bindusara told Asoka about the evil of his sword ... he used the word KORA (ie. in Hindi) for sword - it is a double edged sword while the HI Kora which is a Nepali version is a single edged machete like sword ... any explaination about it.
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I don't think I can work any Kareena photos into this one :( ;)

I'm afraid I don't know as much Hindi as I should like.... And I don't have my Hindi dictionary with me right now. One thing--are you somewhat fluent in Hindi? Are you sure Bindusara didn't say something like 'ghora' (meaning "terrible, awful") instead of 'kora'? - I was just thinking that he might have been describing the sword as 'ghora', I'll have to go back and look/listen.

My guess again is that KORA is still from the Sanskrit root 'chhur' ("to cut") or a cognate root, because the sounds 'K' & 'CH' are related in that they are both what is called 'velar' (pronounced in the back of the mouth), so they are 'easily interchangeable' in a sense. If you speak Italian, you'll see this alternation between the two sounds quite easily.

Again, my guess is that KORA could easily be used by most people as a general word for sword. Since Nepalese & Hindi are closely related, perhaps in Hindi KORA continued to refer to any large-bladed weapon and in Nepalese it came to refer to a particular weapon.

The word 'deer' (in English) was like that--in Old English 'deer' (actually 'deor') just means any "wild (non-domesticated) beast", but it evolved to refer to a particular animal. In German (which is closely related to English), the cognate word 'Tier' (pronounced just like 'tier' in English) continues to simply mean "animal". So in a 'Proto-Germanic' language there was a word *tir or something like that, just meaning 'wild animal' and in English it came to refer to a specific animal and in High German it retained the original sense.

The stuff above about KORAs is just speculation--I don't know is the actual answer. But my guess is that (if Bindusara really used the word KORA for sword) that either the word KORA is more general in Hindi than in Nepalese, or that KORA in general just does not have such a specific meaning as to mean something exactly HI-kora-shaped--maybe it just means something like "big, heavy sword".

Cheers, B.
 
because the sounds 'K' & 'CH' are related in that they are both what is called 'velar'
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Come on, Beoram, you're slipping -- [ch] is alveolar, not velar! ;)They're similar in being voiceless obstruents, [k] being the voiceless velar stop, [ch] the voiceless alveolar affricate.

:D
 
Originally posted by ruel


Come on, Beoram, you're slipping -- [ch] is alveolar, not velar! ;)They're similar in being voiceless obstruents, [k] being the voiceless velar stop, [ch] the voiceless alveolar affricate.

:D
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Fair enough though--ruel is right....though [ch], being an affricate (made up of a stop & a fricative) is actually [tsh]--a combination of two sounds. hope this clears things up for everyone ;) B.
 
Originally posted by Bill Martino
I'll leave this to the linguists -- unless I can get a few more Kareena pix.
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You hear Uncle, he wants more Kareena pics. To be honest, I wouldn't mind some more my self.:D
 
Well, keeping on topic with the katar -- the "tongue of the God of Death" -- and linguistics -- lit. the study of tongues -- I'd be happy to demonstrate tongue positions in articulating consonants with Kareena. :D Tell her to bring a camera. :p
 
Better leave it to a professional first, Uncle Bill -- there are some details that only a well-trained linguistic scholar should attempt. "Data collecting techniques," I like to call them. :D :eek: :cool:
 
Originally posted by ruel
Well, keeping on topic with the katar -- the "tongue of the God of Death" -- and linguistics -- lit. the study of tongues -- I'd be happy to demonstrate tongue positions in articulating consonants with Kareena. Tell her to bring a camera.
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('linguistics' isn't really the "study of tongues" in that sense, as you well know ruel :rolleyes: lingua is "tongue", but, for instance, lingua romano (or whatever the proper form is) isn't a dish (like cow's tongue), it's Latin ("the tongue of the Romans"). So it's "tongue" really in the sense of language.......there are people, including linguistics, who do study tongues [physiological phoneticians??--something like that])

:eek:

Er-humph...;)...on the topic of tongues....I got a very interesting post on KATARS over at the ethno forum @ vikingsword.com:

originnaly posted by Jim McDougall
The katar is another edged weapon which seems to elude definitive data on its origins, evolution and identification. While these are discussed briefly in various works, all that is generally noted is the distinct form and that the pata (gauntlet sword) evolved from it.While it is dangerous to speculate, I would offer the following with what little I have found on the katar to at least provide plausibilities.
It has been stated by Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour") that the term katar is actually incorrect, these are actually termed 'jamadhar' ( jam, Sanskrit yama=god of death; dhar=tooth, sharp edge).
It would seem that the range for examples extends from 16th-18th centuries, but most examples referenced are noted as either 17th or 18th, occasionally 19th c.I feel that the 19th c. dating more likely applies to the period of acquisition.
While examples of the katar appear in most references, the emphasis seems to be on variations rather than development or chronology.
The weapon seems to have originated with the Mahrattas, and it is noted that examples using European sword blades of 16th and 17th c. were often used. Presumably this would mean that these examples were likely the earliest.Since the European presence in the west and south sectors of the subcontinent prevailed early, the Mahrattas probably used those favored blades.The katar then diffused into regions eastward and to the south, with examples subsequently made by local armourers following the form.The examples of the regions of the south became more elaborate with decor, thicker more shaped grip arms and a guard to cover the hand which became a field for artistic motif.
To try to establish chronology of the katar further, it would be necessary to follow the history of campaigns that eventually led into the northwest.By this concept, examples with Mughal context would be placed accordingly.
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interesting stuff. though I'm a bit unsure about 'jamadhar' being the correct term rather than 'katar'--

In any case, 'Jamadhar' can't possibly mean "Tooth/Tongue of the God of Death". 'Yama' is Sanskrit for the God of Death and 'Jama' is probably the Pali & Prakrit form. However, 'dhar' must be from Skt. 'dhaara', which does not mean "tongue" or "tooth". 'Dhaara' has a basic meaning of a 'dividing line' and is a regularly used word for the edge of a blade! Nowhere can I find even the vaguest sense of tongue or tooth! "Tooth" in Sanskrit is 'danta' (closely related to English "dentist").

Tried to do some psuedo-research on the possible origin of KATAR. Found:

1. KANT'AKA = "thorn" (seems plausible enough, but I don't know how to derive it)

2. KANTH'ARA = "hard, stiff"

3. KATAH = "temples of an elephant" (sound familiar??!!...)

and also KAATARA = "cowardly, timid" (not a very likely candidate)

A general question: how do you (any of you) pronounce KATAR? Like Kay-Tar or Kah-Tar? I've been saying the first one (kay-tar) [mainly to myself :eek: ;) ], but I'm thinking that Kah-Tar is more likely...

So--if anyone can tell me (1) correct pronunciation of KATAR and (2) provide a proper derivation of it from Sanskrit (or whatever language [maybe Persian?] it comes from), then I'll put up more Kareena pics...;) ;)

B.
 
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