Katrina Aftermath

M

munk

Joined
Mar 22, 2002
Messages
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I'll be gone all day today driving to Billings to see a Doctor. I'm very concerned that upon my return I'll learn from the News the situation in the Hurricane damaged areas is much worse. This morning the water is rising in New Orleans.

I think the estimates of damage to 27 billion are very very low. It would not be a surprise to see 50 billion. If last night on a rooftop or trapped in an attic was hard, tonight is going to be worse. There is no drinkable water unless you have some bottled available.

The pumps are out of order, or cannot be run without electricity or diesel delivered to site. You can't deliver without a road, and you don't have electricity until the water is drained.

Disasters show us how small we are and if our plans have been adequate. Our plans are not adequate. There has not been a new refinery built in the US since the 1970's. Tapping the Strategic Oil reserve will not help much.

All I can see is mess. Adequate levies would have cost much less than 27 billion dollars. Many of the people living in the affected areas did not even bother to protect their properties- Uncle Sam will take care of that later for them. Various news estimates were only 1:4 or 1:5 boarded the windows.

One man was quoted about staying in the SuperDome: "If I wanted to see a roof blow off I could have stayed at home and watched my own."

Well. For every disatisfied 'customer' there are scores of heros doing what needs be done. These Big Events in Life bring out the small and the Great of Heart. And if we'd had great plans and better infrastructure, what then? Why, failure and loss, of course. There are many things wrong with our Nation, many injustices. And there are many things right, both in our society and in the individual.

I always end up in the same place- time to pray. We could have done better, but we are only men. I'll be home in about 12 hours. I'm hoping when I get back I'll find a fleet of boats in the flooded areas bringing rescue.

The image of people drowning in their homes waiting for rescue is too painfull for me to believe otherwise.


munk
 
Putting the refineries in New Orleans was "efficent" but shortsighted IMO.

The oil in the Gulf of Mexico was easier to ship to New Orleans for processing
but now that won't happen for months now.

And New Orleans has ceased to exist as a coherent government entity so
my heart and prayers go out to the people of the city. They are in for a
long struggle.
 
From what I heard when last years 'canes were raging and smacking us around, there are some scientists that believe that hurricane strength and frequency happens in cycles. According to them we are getting hit by a cycle of pretty bad seasons. I know 2 years doesn't make a pattern, but these storms have been pretty rough the last couple of years, just the same.

Jake
 
Oil- energy- is a long term problem. This crisis brings it out even more than last weeks record oil prices. I paid 2.78 a gallon for gas this afternoon.

I see looting has begun. MSNBC had some tape of some New Orleans police looting Wal Mart. There was also a N.O. Cop shot in the head when he tried to stop the looting in another location.

People have axes in their attics for when the water rises and they need to get to the roof. I'm a little worried some don't have axes, can't use them, and there are people stuck in houses this night.


munk
 
That video footage of the NOPD officers looting Walmart just made me sick :mad: I understand that a senator has told people to go and loot items that they need (food and water) because authorities would not be able to get those items to them. But to see two cops picking over the shoe rack and avoiding the reporter (and then threatening him when he persisted on asking what they were doing)... just sickens me.

One guy was actually trying to wheel out a shopping cart loaded with one of those large electic toy cars for his daughter (a necessity according to they guy) :mad: :mad:

I'm praying for everyone on the Gulf coast. Even the looters... they need some serious help from above.

Alan
 
Houses built on the sides of unstable hills or in canyons choked by dry brush both earn Darwin Award nominations. What do we make of cities built below sea level on a coast subject to hurricanes?

What to do if the levees breach? There was no plan according to a former Mayor of NO.

Interesting news is that the "giant" pumps, if they worked, drain into the lake that is draining into the city from the north

It gets worst by the hour. The water continues to rise as the water produced by the rains works its way south.

And NO missed the worst of a storm that luckily lost power just as it was coming ashore. Just imagine the result if the "right side" had hit NO headon --say 100,000 dead?

The Governor is blaiming the Corps. of Engineers for not countering the failures of the levees promptly. Just how they might have done that was not suggested. ABS Ted repeated that charge in closing his report this morning.

Did we have any Cantinistas in harm's way?
 
The Corps tried to plug the main hole of the levi from the lake, but it was far bigger than they'd thought and the 3000 (?) pound sand bags helicoptered in were doing nothing- and then night came and operations were stopped for safety.


munk
 
I love NO. I love the blend of cultures. I love the food. I love staggering around the French Quarter. One of my absolute favorite place in the country to visit. Probably THE favorite. However, i just can't see how we're going to save this city. Or why we would do build it just like it was. It's always been a bit of a novelty that the city sits at the sea...below sea level. I mean, they "buried" the dead above the ground because anytime it flooded the bodies would float up out of the ground...so i've been told on a tour. I love the place and it breaks my heart to see it smashed and flooded, but how do you recover a city that is 80% under water? 80%! where is the point of no return. Where does the reconstruction of New Orleans end and construction of Orleans v3.0 begin? Continued smoke and prayers for those suffering though this logistic nightmare.

Jake
 
I was thinking about this last night. There are many other nations that have cities below sea level, for many different reasons. But the Northern European nations build strong sea walls.

I think these are good questions being raised here.

Last night on the news I saw the darker underbelly of New Orleans. It made me a little sick. But I reminded myself NO is no different from other large cities, and the criminal element. The looting was sad, but there are rotten people everywhere and others who will just go along with the crowd.
Seeing the Cops fill their own shopping cart was an event. On one hand, what the hay, let them have some free stuff. There is that. And there is the cop with a bullet hole in his head trying to do what was right with the looters. That's where I have to come down. News Orgs pulled their people out of NO last night. They could no longer guarentee their safety. One reporter commented about leaving- he kept hearing from citizens things like;
" Hey man, you got any money? Can I have some? Lemme have your camera- I can barter it for other stuff."

There is good reason to shoot looters. Apparently, there are a lot of disenfranchised folks in NO who feel when the time is right a free VCR is 'fair'. That cops could go along with that means the sentiment is widespread. That is bad news for our major cities.

We'll see more of the good stuff soon, I'm certain.



munk
 
We are ultimately responsible for ourselves and our safety. That's the painful truth. The government can't always bail you out. You're always going to have some degree of danger. How far you go to protect yourself is up to you. NO is at the crux of sinking or swimming right now. All the good that people bring in the form of food, money, and supplies from outside of the area will be for not if the situation inside falls apart. Taking food and water from stores is a good thing. People don't have it. they need it. However, carting out VCRs, TVs, etc is sickening. Those greedy rats deserve to sink in the muddy brine for their thieving. Take the food. Take the water. Hell, take the 24 pack of pepsi and the candy bars. They give you energy and you might as well as have something that gives you pleasure in this horrible time. Don't hord and don't take from others.
If i was a reporter that covered any disasters I'm sure i would earn the nickname "Cowboy" or "Dirty" as i would strap a .45 hand canon too my leg and have it in plain sight. I'm here to tell your story. I'm here to make sure that those with fat wallets see your plight. I am NOT a meal ticket. If you want to mug, mug someoene else. not the guy trying to make sure everyone knows horrible the situation is. i can't shoot worth a bean, but they don't know that.

Jake
 
If you build levees at the edge of a mature river (Mississippi, Yellow), the bed of the river rises due to deposition of sediment. So you raise the height of the levees, and . . . .

Then the levee fails and . . . .


Sort of like preventing small forest fires and banning logging. Then . . . .
 
Well, heck, Thomas; they build levies in Iceland et al at river mouths. Different soil?

Then let's move the city. (if there is a place to move it...)


munk
 
munk said:
Well, heck, Thomas; they build levies in Iceland et al at river mouths. Different soil?

Then let's move the city. (if there is a place to move it...)


munk
Click to expand...

Young, fast rivers flush themselves out. Old, slow rivers deposit. Build levees at the edge and soon the bed of the river is above the surrounding land -- and rising. Leads to terrific floods when nature finally wins the battle of control. 100,000's have died in the Yellow River valley in China over the years (Levees there are 1000's of years old.)

Put the levees a ways back, behind wetlands, and you get a different result. But that gives up rich "bottom land" and valuable waterfront property. Can't do that. :rolleyes:
 
So there is a way to do it. Stable wetlands buffer zone.
I don't know if the American Tax payer should rebuild New Orleans in a bowl every 40 to 50 years after it gets hits by a big enough Hurricane.


As usual, Thomas, you know 'a lot of stuff'. Makes sense about old slow river leaving deposits, especially near the mouth.



munk
 
I think the estimates of damage to 27 billion are very very low.

Those are estimates of "insured risk". That does not include deductibles, or uninsured risk, nor the risk assumed by the government. The total lost may be ten or twenty times that number.

n2s
 
The land along most of the Mississippi presents flooding problems.

As each community builds out the the river's edge and raises levee heights, the water which would normally overflow gets shunted downstream to the next town, which does the same thing.

Remember the big flood a few years ago?

Add in the fact that in the past, the river periodically cut new channels in the the delta (or further upstream) when the bed got too high. Now we have constrained it to what somel think is a single, "permanent" channel.

You can't try to convert a giant watershed into what is, essentially, a giant concrete-lined ditch without some consequences.

New Orleans has it coming from both sides.

However, the port and river traffic are vital, so I suspect many parts will be rebuilt as can best be done. And these facilities have to be right next to the water. There's not much choice, physically or economically.

Enterprises independent of the port and river traffic may be taken up elsewhere.
 
firkin said:
The land along most of the Mississippi presents flooding problems.

As each community builds out the the river's edge and raises levee heights, the water which would normally overflow gets shunted downstream to the next town, which does the same thing.

Remember the big flood a few years ago?

Add in the fact that in the past, the river periodically cut new channels in the the delta (or further upstream) when the bed got too high. Now we have constrained it to what somel think is a single, "permanent" channel.

You can't try to convert a giant watershed into what is, essentially, a giant concrete-lined ditch without some consequences.

New Orleans has it coming from both sides.
Click to expand...

You tell em, bro. :thumbup:

However, the port and river traffic are vital, so I suspect many parts will be rebuilt as can best be done. And these facilities have to be right next to the water. There's not much choice, physically or economically.
Click to expand...

Well there are ports up rivers beyond the reach of the worst coastal events. Houston; Phili. The Port of Baton Rouge? :confused:
 
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