Kerambit Video Clip

Hay people,

Iv been playing with Karambits for quite a while and this guy (Iv never seen him before and know nothing of his background etc.) is not someone who looks prficiant even at a beginner level,
the Karambit was born in the Philipiens and the techniques from this region are devistating, dont listen to any other "martial arts" crap !

Wasalam Sahib !
 
I think that would be a beginner template. Jeff is from the Sayoc lineage. He's a good guy and fine teacher. The Sayoc's are for one thing, known for their templates. Where they first show you simple targeting. That is what that looks like. I think you would have to see the whole video to give an educated opinion as to whether or not it is good. To judge on about 10 seconds or 20 seconds of a simple template is unfair. The Karambit is from the Philipines but not originally. It was brought over from Indonesia. One theory is it was decsended from Indian mythology. As Indian peoples settled in Indonesia and mingled with the indegenous peoples there. So it wasn not born in the Philipines. Though it may be heavily used there. That is one reason why you will find it in Malaysia and even up into Thailand as well as the Philipines. It was the Indonesians that really made it and spread it thru their Silat. As they went from Island to island in either trade or war. Peace...R
 
I think if a clip is presented on-line then its reasonable to comment on that clip, and if the nature of that commentary is critical, then I don't think it need automatically be construed as a challenge or an insult to someone's honor or overall ability.

If Guro Jeff is offering good kerambit training, as people are arguing, then does this clip do it justice?

In my opinion, no. And here's why I think so:-

My original comment was in relation to the statue-like behaviour of his training partner, and this was the crux of my problem with the clip: Or rather, what implications this has for everything else presented. We have an attacker filling the classic mould of the overly-compliant partner. You all know what I'm talking about : attacks in a half-hearted, linear fashion (and freezes in place, not retracting his arm), then fails to use his offhand, head, legs or otherwise continue his assault. And fails to respond likewise in any kind of defensive manner.

In contrast, Guro Jeff is a whirling black-clothed dervish popping in an around limbs and generally going medievil on the guy with his kerambit.

...Except.... Even the most improbable technique can be made to work, and work easily, against a compliant unmoving opponent who has presented a pre-arranged attack.

It requires no real sense of distance, no real timing, and given the consensual and predicable line of attack it would take a great deal of active effort to get it wrong. Especially if your partner is someone you've presumably rehearsed with over years of training. It's a world away from the kind of dynamic, alive training which has been gaining ground in the martial arts community over the past few years (including in the realm of bladecraft with people like Ray Floro).

In sum: Is this clip a good indicator of Guro Jeff's ability with a kerambit or as a martial artist? I think definitley not. But if the purpose of the DVD is instructional alone, then this is not necessarily an issue:-

Others have posted that is supposed to only represent a basic introduction to templates (incidentally, are these Sayoc templates Guro Jeff is teaching in his Neo Tribal Kali, or are they his own?). I can buy this on one level, but if this is the case then you might as well do away with the robotic attacker altogether and use a static dummy, because they amount to the same thing. I would further argue that unless this is a DVD of templates alone then presumably there is some footage of Guro Jeff putting this stuff to use against an alive, resisting opponent attacking with his own weapon? If this is on the DVD then I think it would have been a good addition to the clip to balance out the static non-alive stuff, showing how these basics actually come into play in a pressure-testing situation.

I hope this post will be read in the spirit it is offered. I'm not slagging off this clip for the sake of it (its not like I'm a competitor with my own). I'd like to see this thread as constructive criticism rather than a bunch of guys going "Its a bad clip, fully stop." and another bunch of guys going "Hey, that's Guro Jeff, it can't be bad, full stop".
 
Well, hello, this certainly has been interesting, LOL.

First off, i'd like to say the following. Thanks for taking time to view my clip and post your thoughts.

Now, to answer some of the questions that have been posed...

1-Due to editing, it looks like my partner hasn't attacked, and is standing very still. That is for several reasons... one, I don't want to take a chance of accidentally hurting my partner, and two, ANYONE, who has trained with me, knows that if you make a sudden move, I will react to it, and chances are very good that the response I provide will be a bit, disconcerting. <grin>

2-My videoclip was designed to show several things... one... basic striking motions with a kerambit on different levels combined with footwork. I've done quite a bit of extensive research on the media that is currently available on the market. My DVD is the ONLY tape currently readily available that addresses footwork, entering options, targeting and shows ranging on various lines to counter different attack and counterattack lines from an opponent. If you know of any more Impressive clips, please post them here, I would love to see them.

3-This is a demonstration of a kerambit, which is a sharp knife with a point. I would love very much to see how much resistance can be applied following my initial cuts and strikes.

4-The clip was designed to show how a knifer can move with a blade such as a kerambit. Many would be "knife experts" and those that teach defense against a blade usually show a defense against a single attack line. As you can see, very clearly, the blade can move in many directions and with rapidity. Without the appropriate line of training, the vast majority of defenses taught will NOT work against this most BASIC of cutting patterns demonstrated.

5-My DVD is instructional. It teaches the student sound fundamentals of how to use a kerambit, including solo practice, progressive partner practice, footwork, blade management, and some very basic FMA concepts that most people are not aware how to use in application.

6-Finally, not everything can appeal to everyone, that is for sure. I would be most happy to demonstrate my techniques to anyone who would like to inquire for more information. My goal in producing the DVDs is to provide REAL instruction in that medium. I believe I have succeeded, the clip posted is merely a teaser to generate some interest.

7-I do NOT use formal templates as shown in Sayoc Kali.

8-I am scheduled for several seminars around the country for kerambit seminars. I will be in Atlanta, Chicago, NYC, Salt Lake City and Alabama. If interested in attending or examining up close my teaching methods, please feel free to contact me.

9-My DVDs are currently available for sale. I have Level 1 and Level 2 kerambit DVD out for sale. Please check my website for purchasing information.

10-I think it is very interesting how people choose to identify with the would be attacker in the videoclip, especially as how the clip is to demonstrate how an individual would use a Kerambit.

By the way, Hey Rich, thanks for the back up, lol. Thanks to all those who have supported my efforts.

I'm here in Manhattan if anyone would like to "Resist me." LOL

Please if anyone can find a more "IMPRESSIVE" videoclip of kerambit use on the net, please post it here.

With respects,
Guro Jeff Chung
Neo Tribe Kali

I'll be happy to "show."

http://ntkali.org
 
No sweat Jeff! Well spoken. All your points well taken. Good luck with the DVD. I will have to add it to my library indeed. Peace....R
 
Guro Jeff, if you're doing any 'showing' can I watch? LOL

But seriously, I'd love to attend. It would be great if it were Thursday during our class times, so my students could watch as well, it would be a very valuable lesson for them IMO. However, I can pretty much make it anywhen&where, so just let me know. That is, if you don't mind, of course.

Also, would you be able to bring a copy of your Level 1 DVD this Thursday for purchase?

As always, my compliments to you and the tribe!

Respectfully,
Allain Atienza
Chief Instructor
Atienza Kali
www.atienzakali.com
 
Cool clip. The stick and knife videos on his website were even more impressive.
 
Hey Jeff,
I don't see a level 2 dvd for sale on your site? o you hav ethem yet? I am interested in getting one. PEace....R
 
Dear Guro Jeff,

Thanx for your efforts in producing a knifefighting dvd.

You wrote:

Due to editing, it looks like my partner hasn't attacked, and is standing very still. That is for several reasons... one, I don't want to take a chance of accidentally hurting my partner, and two, ANYONE, who has trained with me, knows that if you make a sudden move, I will react to it, and chances are very good that the response I provide will be a bit, disconcerting.

In my humble oppinion, a guru/guro needs to react and show his students the variety of techniques possible according to that sudden move(s), that is what training-instructing and learning is all about! However, if a guru/guro react on a sudden move and his re/action might be a bit disconcerting for his student, this is the moment where I think, thanx but no thanx.

With all due respect, A guru/guro needs to give good conduct and example for his students and for those who are willing to learn, at all time, no matter what!

My 2 cents,

Respect and good luck with your dvd.
 
I am not sure that any opinions are going to be changed on this thread, but since I seem to have gotten my self into the debate I will stick with it...

1-Due to editing, it looks like my partner hasn't attacked, and is standing very still. That is for several reasons... one, I don't want to take a chance of accidentally hurting my partner, and two, ANYONE, who has trained with me, knows that if you make a sudden move, I will react to it, and chances are very good that the response I provide will be a bit, disconcerting. <grin>
Click to expand...

In fairness, I don't think it can all be put down to editting... Its not just that the initial attack is weak, the guy subsequently fails to retract his arm, move his feet, use his offhand or respond in any way to what you are doing. Its not just the way the clip is cut, it is pretty obvious that he is unmoving and compliant.

You seem to be suggesting above that this is partially for his own safety- that if he moves unpredictably you might respond harshly. I'm puzzled: If you are using a training kerambit and he doesn't mind taking a few knocks (and if you don't as well), then why not show this on the DVD? I cannot accept that training with a bit more resistance and a non-compliant partner would present unnacceptable safety risks.

3-This is a demonstration of a kerambit, which is a sharp knife with a point. I would love very much to see how much resistance can be applied following my initial cuts and strikes.
Click to expand...

Again, aren't you using a training version of a kermabit? A variety of people spar and train and speed and with an element of contact using various types of trainers whe practicing conventional knifework, I'm not sure I see why kerambits are uniquely dangerous if the training version is blunted and not too heavy.

10-I think it is very interesting how people choose to identify with the would be attacker in the videoclip, especially as how the clip is to demonstrate how an individual would use a Kerambit.
Click to expand...

Unless the material can be demonstrated to hold up against a dedicated attack, against a resisting attacker, then why should any credence be put in it? Pretty much anything can look good with a compliant partner, when things are scripted and choreographed. Hence why we still have people demonstrated a plethora of improbable stuff in the area of edged weapons defense etc.

The attacker in the clip is so half-hearted that we never see the material pressure-tested or put to use in a dynamic situation. I am inclined to argue that without seeing the basics put into play against a reasonably competent training partner / attacker, then little credibility has been established for them.
 
Magnum 440,
What system and under who? and what is your age please? Do you have a website and or school? Just curious. Most instructors have restraint when it comes to critisizing other instructors as they understand diplomacy and cooperation within their community. As well, they know that each instructor individually has the right to teach as per his preferance and personal style regardless of the system or it's politics. Again, I must say that no one can give an educated opinion unless they have seen the whole dvd. I have not seen it, therefore I cannot judge it. I have only seen the clip and I do know Guro Jeff a bit so I have drawn my conclusions based on a little more info. To call an instructor out on line with only approx 10 seconds of a clip that merely shows targeting and not technique or resistance or a fight but just TARGETING would be ignorant of me. This is just unfair wouldn't you say? It would be as if I saw a picture of you doing a technique and then going on line and saying "you suck because that picture isn't the "real deal" Also, for as long as I can remember EVERY Guro, teacher, Sifu, Shihan, whatever has done the same thing. They show techniques and targeting both together and seperately. WHy? so that beginners can break down the movements and understand them. LIke I said, everything in steps. This is a level 1 DVD so that would imply a beginners level no? Yes, yes it would. Your partner in class serves several purposes, one being merely a target for you to get the angles down correctly, then to be a good bad guy and show resistance and fight back and increasingly over time make it more difficult for you so that you can grow and adapt with your art. SO that it becomes more realistic but that takes steps. No matter what the art there are measures of sensitivity to them and that is something most people don't pick up immediately unlike a simple punch or strike. Even strikes are awkward for some less coordinated people. So, this mild bashing of what is OBVIOUSLY a simplified display for the new practitioner and the lay person should be understood as Jeff has so well put it already. In the end both "targeting" and "resistance" are needed. All the bases should be covered. I have seen a lot of guys who are new hurt themselves trying to just go and mix it up immediately without even knowing how to slash or thrust or punch or grapple or whatever it may be. We have all probably seen seasoned practitioners hurt themselves as well but in the heat of competition or a real fight, they throw a punch less accurately or thrust less accurately and bust their wrist or break a finger or ankle, etc. **** happens period, wouldn't you say? Peace...R
 
Well dear RDT,

If you read my post well, I am not talking about the techniques in the clip, why should I. I respect the efforts of guro Jeff making a knifefighting dvd.

It's this sentence what puzzled me!

Guro Jeff wrote: ANYONE, who has trained with me, knows that if you make a sudden move, I will react to it, and chances are very good that the response I provide will be a bit, disconcerting. <grin>

I am sure that if you read my post you will discover that I don't criticise guro jeff in technique, dvd or something else.

Regards,
 
Magnum 440, okay. very well. It was the "thanks, but no thanks" comment. That sounded like a put down. Wouldn't you agree? Anyway, it's not fair for me either to direct the debate to you only. It's the overall tone of the clips detractors. Again, no one can fairly judge without watching the whole dvd. I would like to know your school or website or what have you. I am always in search people with something to offer. Thanks for the speedy reply...R
 
RDT,

I agree that one should be instructed in steps and I understand why basic video's are cut in simple steps. Here is a part of something I posted 2 weeks ago:

Beginners need to learn the basics/fundamentals of fighting first, if one can't fight at all, one definitely can't fight with a knife. So first learn some essential basics. After the basics my students will learn how to move and fight with the short woodsticks or the wooden knives.
Important is the training in proper movement, how to gain distance and how to defend oneself, how to attack, feint and to learn different strike forms, possitioning and study of human body, the strike points, what are the human body weaknesses, etc. One need to learn all these aspects in order to become a knife fighter or a fighter at all for that matter.

Depending how one will develop I can judge if a student is ready for advanced training in knifefighting.

I agree one can use the knife in basic training or fundamental training, however in the first period of training I believe its a little prematured.

Knifefighting is an exclusive art, a way of fighting, which stands on its own, to become a skilled knifefighter one needs to be guided patiently.
First learn how to drive a car, after that, one can think of becoming a racer, its not natural to become a racer and to learn how to drive at the same time.

But then again I am just a student in life and I am still learning every day.

Okay, you asked:

What system and under who? and what is your age please? Do you have a website and or school?

I am the chief instructor at the Tenaga Kembar Freestyle Fighting System and my age.. Funny you ask, 34. You can visit my website at http://www.tenagakembar.nl

Regards and respect,
 
Magnum 440 the site looks good! Kudos to you. What you have just said was well said and is basically what I was also saying. Thank you for the info. And I am left wondering what the debate is all about?
 
Jhivaro man said:
In fairness, I don't think it can all be put down to editting... Its not just that the initial attack is weak, the guy subsequently fails to retract his arm, move his feet, use his offhand or respond in any way to what you are doing. Its not just the way the clip is cut, it is pretty obvious that he is unmoving and compliant.

You seem to be suggesting above that this is partially for his own safety- that if he moves unpredictably you might respond harshly. I'm puzzled: If you are using a training kerambit and he doesn't mind taking a few knocks (and if you don't as well), then why not show this on the DVD? I cannot accept that training with a bit more resistance and a non-compliant partner would present unnacceptable safety risks.
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Click to expand...
I don't know how much blade training you do, Jhivaro. In my classes here in Manhattan, we do bladework EVERY class. One of the things i've learned through hard experience is that even with trainers, it's more than just a few knocks that are administered when intensity is brought up in the training. In class, i've implemented a requirement for eye protection because many students have been stabbed and thrusted in the face when we up the intensity. As I have many students who are professional people, and also, women, in class... as a responsible instructor, I have to be responsible for peoples' safety. It's too bad that my clip disappoints you in that regards.
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Again, aren't you using a training version of a kermabit? A variety of people spar and train and speed and with an element of contact using various types of trainers whe practicing conventional knifework, I'm not sure I see why kerambits are uniquely dangerous if the training version is blunted and not too heavy.
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Click to expand...
Yes, I use a trainer. A trainer can be very damaging to a person if the person using the trainer knows what's up. Sparring is never fighting. If you are truly using a trainer appropriately, it has to be respected the same as if it were a 'live blade.'
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Unless the material can be demonstrated to hold up against a dedicated attack, against a resisting attacker, then why should any credence be put in it? Pretty much anything can look good with a compliant partner, when things are scripted and choreographed. Hence why we still have people demonstrated a plethora of improbable stuff in the area of edged weapons defense etc.
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Click to expand...
I know you probably don't believe this, but if you look carefully at the clip, you'll see i'm really only moving at a half-speed rate. In addition, none of the techniques shown were rehearsed or choreographed. As indicated earlier, it is truly a difficult thing to resist when a person is cut or thrust with a sharpened object, even more so when the person doing the cutting or thrusting is moving from one side to the other, or altering distances forward and backwards.

While you note the compliance of my demonstration partner, what you fail to see is... application of footwork (how predictable can your resistance be to different variations of footwork, note also, how i am moving from one point to the next, and where is my blade hand as I move-do you notice that my blade hand is positioned to readily counter from either side?)

If you notice the pattern of cutting used, you'll see that i'm using a hinge type of action with the blade cuts, that allows for rapid response to several different directions depending upon what my partner may do.

In addition, you'll notice that the cutting motions are predicated upon what would happen or is likely to happen if my cut or motion does land upon its intended target.
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The attacker in the clip is so half-hearted that we never see the material pressure-tested or put to use in a dynamic situation. I am inclined to argue that without seeing the basics put into play against a reasonably competent training partner / attacker, then little credibility has been established for them.
Click to expand...
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It appears that you have a predetermined idea of what a fight should be like, or at the very least how you would like to have YOUR training sessions appear to be.

I prefer to share and educate with those who would seek out the training that I have to offer.

In review of the objectives of my clip:
I wanted to show footwork and entry lines
I wanted to show how a knifer can flow from one point to the next
I wanted to show how to use the point, primary and secondary edges of the kerambit in a basic format of demonstration
I wanted to entertain and draw interest through a safely applied demonstration
I wanted to let people be aware that I have something to offer.

I believe i've succeeded with that.

In the meantime, My next seminar is in Oklahoma, i'll be there from April 1 to April 3.

I'll be in Atlanta, GA in June for the Blade show doing a seminar there.

I have many students who come in from all over the US to train with me here in midtown Manhattan. Please feel free to pop in and visit with me.

For those of you who are interested, my DVDs are for sale.

You can see them listed at:
http://fmamedia.com
or, you can visit my website at:
http://ntkali.org

Respects to all,
Guro Jeff Chung
Neo Tribe Kali
New York
 
sticknblade said:
hahaha, I agree!! It's the same with most of these vids, a guy attacks and the other guy doesn't move! :confused: :confused:

Jhivaro, why don't you call him out and test him?

I would but i don't beat up on short guys hahaha.
Click to expand...

Um I wouldn't waste money on training from a small midgit whos very S-L-O-W and only "counters" immobile targets. If you wanna see a real badass, check the Reverse Edge trailer on shivworks.com. That guy would make quick work of the guy in this clip. His training actually has a more reality base, and it even looks like hes bleeding in one bit. Theres a huge difference between using perfect form against an unmoving attacker and contending with the real physics surrounding a violent, real life encounter. I hope I'm not hurting anyones feelings, but this is a joke. check shivworks.com and compare, you'll see what I'm talking about. It looks like the "safety" of the participants is being used as an excuse to make the training rigid and unrealistic. I can undertand the fact that an instructor wouldn't want to get his students hurt, but this is F***ing knife fighting, not badminton. I lack the years of martial arts training and credentials of the said Guru, but I'm not stupid enough to beleive that you can teach someone to fight without simulating real violent combat as best you can. I once trained under two boxing teachers, one who advocated sparring, and one who didn't. The one who didn't explained that this was to eliminate the chance of getting hurt during training, and that "sparring is not fighting, and you cant teach someone how to fight with this training tool". He somehow beleived that you would instantaneously know how in a real bout. Needless to say, I watched a match of one of his other students who had never sparred, and he was completely awkward and basically sucked sh*t. Then again, I have suffered concussions sparring with people twice my size and weight. So yes I have been hurt in training. But being hurt in training is better than being killed in combat, unless you are just trying to cash in on students' fantasy ideals and don't care whether or not they will be able to defend themselves in a real encounter.
 
Apparently everyone's a professional knifer around here. Everyone's a critic and everyone's an expert. I had no idea we had such expert company here. WOW! I mean, with the SAME thing said over and over again, it's like who cares if your preaching to the choir anymore, right? ;)

Just a little of the obvious to lighten the mood...he,he
 
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