Kerambit Video Clip

I still wouldn't publicly denounce anyone without knowing ALL the info. I guess my fault is I expect others would do the same... ;) You have all made fine points, but none were kin to mine. To keep it going some more... I have rarely seen a single realistic fight in any class or video, why? because...no matter what, there is a hierarchical structure in any class. Formal or not. The instructor always has the advantage, psychologically. I have seen good students or seminar goers take good shots at various teachers over the years but never with the intensity they had on the street. Two reasons:
1. They fear the instructor and so the never quite give it their all against them. The instructor usually knows that below the surface.
2. Subconciously they know "this isn't real, it's just training" so that flick of the switch doesn't happen like it would in a life or death situation.

No matter hwo realistic the art was or the SD was, it never plays out like reality until reality is brought to you.
Yeah man, shivworks and southnarcs stuff are very good indeed. He's got quick and sure hands. Good stuff, highly recommended.
 
RDT said:
I still wouldn't publicly denounce anyone without knowing ALL the info. I guess my fault is I expect others would do the same... ;) You have all made fine points, but none were kin to mine. To keep it going some more... I have rarely seen a single realistic fight in any class or video, why? because...no matter what, there is a hierarchical structure in any class. Formal or not. The instructor always has the advantage, psychologically. I have seen good students or seminar goers take good shots at various teachers over the years but never with the intensity they had on the street. Two reasons:
1. They fear the instructor and so the never quite give it their all against them. The instructor usually knows that below the surface.
2. Subconciously they know "this isn't real, it's just training" so that flick of the switch doesn't happen like it would in a life or death situation.

No matter hwo realistic the art was or the SD was, it never plays out like reality until reality is brought to you.
Yeah man, shivworks and southnarcs stuff are very good indeed. He's got quick and sure hands. Good stuff, highly recommended.
Click to expand...

Agree that class and reality are distinct, and there are some aspects of a real criminal assault that can't be duplicated in a class environment. I also agree that southnarc's stuff is great.

I don't think anyone is asking for real live fights on each video snippet, but there's a lot of open territory between "real fight" and "fighting mannequins". Anyone teaching realistic self-defense should see if they can't nudge the needle a bit towards realism.
 
but wouldn't you say that in most classes if not all, the instructor whether knife or grappling or whatever, will always break the technique down for you after showing it to you. So, that when your muscles remember the angles and positioning, it will become a part of your arsenal for those more intense sparing sessions. Only to later be truly tested in the heat of a real fight. You can't just beat the crap outta people and say okay, now you do it. Well, you can ;) but most wouldn't get it. Some would. Some more physically inclined people but most wouldn't. It's a demo for that split second window of opportunity, that possibility for that particular technique. Not that a million other things couldn't happen, which is why people train mixed MA now anyway. But, that even mixing MA, each technique, zone, footwork, parry, whatever is taught outside the context of a real fight first. Usually the technique be it a punch, clinch, slash, what have you, is demonstrated "real" time and the afterwards broken down so that you can see what the "style" dictates is proper form and execution. Sure, reality says that chaos is the only form but additions to your arsenal won't hurt if you have trained realistically right? But even realism for a beginner takes steps. You don't want some total new jack with something to rpove busting his own wrist on your elbow if you can help it. Or you don't want him clocking himself in his own head with a stick if it can be helped as well. Sure they'd learn a lesson but some people never learn. That's why curriculum exists. It's all curriculum.
 
the thing that i don't really get is this...people always look at a technique and say "oh, that crap would never work in a real fight". i think what people should say is "oh, I could never pull that off in a real fight". there's a big difference. all techniques work simple or complicated. it's the practitioner who fail to make it work. now a days i always here people say that high flying sidekicks or spin kicks would never work. truth is they work but not everyone can pull them off because it requires high level of skill, timing, and hopefully your opponent don't see it coming.

now, why teach these complicated silly techniques? simple. (i am paraphrasing Guru Dan's word's as i heard him say it) "sometimes i teach techniques that i may not like because they are too fancy or complicated. but just because i can't make them work for me does not mean nobody else can make it work". in other words, another man's junk is another man's treasure.

what's being demonstrated on any demo clip is really not the problem. it is the receiver of the lesson.

as i said before...it's all about the packaging. some presentations will appeal to others and some type of demo will not.
 
Just to throw my two cents in, I am a 6', 200 lb cop that has been studying martial arts since he I was 10. I have actually been to one of Guro Jeff's seminars and I was impressed enough that I would pay for another one.

You can critique someone's video all you want, but if you are attackng the man without ever having been on the mat with him, it's all just keyboard commando bullshit.
 
I think Lewis and Saint have both said the most important things in this entire thread. Thanks....R
 
You can critique someone's video all you want, but if you are attackng the man without ever having been on the mat with him, it's all just keyboard commando bullshit.
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Well, you're right that there is a distinction between critiquing someone's video and attacking the man himself. Its constructive criticism like the former that has led to this thread evolving into a healthy discussion of training methodologies, and to Guro Jeff planning another clip to better represent his point of view.

I actually think the counterattacks and accusations thrown by friends / students of Guro Jeff (at least, I'm presuming they are, because they have posted more religiously to this thread than he himself has ) only serve to muddy the waters, and make it almost seem like there is a cult of personality at work, where there is a knee-jerk reaction to any criticism and constructive criticism cannot be distinguished from insults.

Let's talk about training methods, let's talk about footage on display, but enough of the personal comments, they only sidetrack what has otherwise become a good thread.
 
RDT said:
but wouldn't you say that in most classes if not all, the instructor whether knife or grappling or whatever, will always break the technique down for you after showing it to you. So, that when your muscles remember the angles and positioning, it will become a part of your arsenal for those more intense sparing sessions.
Click to expand...

Sure, no argument. My question was always about why, when you have a chance to show millions of people your stuff, you'd show nothing but broken down, static moves, that don't look all that straightforward. Hopefully, I haven't questioned the teaching methodology, so much as the choice of what to videotape and post. Although a teaching methodology discussion could be interesting too.
 
One final note about the Shivworks clip.
Haven't seen the southnark guy in person so I'm not going to discredit his abilities. However, specifically regarding the clip posted earlier, the two-on-one segment at the end looks like a flimsy schoolyard scuffle.
The guy in the white shirt practically stands static and then throws himself on the ground.

Oh well, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
Note, though, that he'd been stabbed multiple times by that point -- and who knows how many times before that particular clip started (the editing implies this scene started mid-assault). At some point, getting stabbed might slow the guy down, so it's not unrealistic. Even if you don't like how that particular clip was done (though again, you may not have noted that guy was stabbed already), I don't see how you can look at that clip as a whole and not see a huge difference in the teaching methodology versus mannequin fighting. "Oh well, everyone is entitled to his opinion" indeed!

Joe
 
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