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Kershaw Chive under attack in Illinois
- Thread starter mnblade
- Start date
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- Apr 12, 2000
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- 2,116
I agree. While there are many great LEOs that do their job well, there are a lot of moron LEOs as well. I know many departments will hire just about anyone who wants the job. You don't need a college degree, and most places just train people on the job. So you don't always have the best and brightest protecting and serving you. I think there needs to be more accountability when it comes to LEOs. If they don't do their job well and abuse their power and F with innocent citizens they should be punished.
I am 100% behind everyone here who loves the Chive and thinks the Illinois situation is outrageous. I have a Chive, it's a cool knife and I've never worried about it being a switchblade or illegal.
But . . . .
To play Devil's Advocate, what is the practical difference between a Chive and a "real" 2" switchblade? I know, the button, but isn't that a distinction without a difference? Suppose I took my Chive, filed off the flipper and mounted a button on the back of the handle to depress the spot on the blade where the flipper used to be. Would that turn it into a switchblade? Under the law, it might, but what is the difference? And why isn't the flipper some "other device in the handle" as covered by the law?
I guess my point is that the law may be stupid, but I don't think it is too big a stretch to interpret the law to cover the Chive.
Believe me when I say that I hope I am wrong.
But . . . .
To play Devil's Advocate, what is the practical difference between a Chive and a "real" 2" switchblade? I know, the button, but isn't that a distinction without a difference? Suppose I took my Chive, filed off the flipper and mounted a button on the back of the handle to depress the spot on the blade where the flipper used to be. Would that turn it into a switchblade? Under the law, it might, but what is the difference? And why isn't the flipper some "other device in the handle" as covered by the law?
I guess my point is that the law may be stupid, but I don't think it is too big a stretch to interpret the law to cover the Chive.
Believe me when I say that I hope I am wrong.
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2001
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- 8,969
I'm so friggin' embarrassed to be from Illinois. We have such a bass ackward bunch of laws here. CCW??? yeah, right. Won't happen in my lifetime. A chive? gimme a break! I guess my wife is a criminal then. She has one in her purse right now. I was sharpening it up a little tonight and thinking about this thread. Yeah, a dangerous weapon...
If someone pulled this on me, I'd laugh, kick him in the balls and shove it up his ass!
If someone pulled this on me, I'd laugh, kick him in the balls and shove it up his ass!
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2000
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- 2,116
I guess it depends on how the judge would interprut the law. I would think "other device in the handle" wouldn't apply to the flipper because the flipper is part of the blade itself, and it's between the handles, not in the handle. However, is between the handles, in the handle? Also the blade isn't really opened automatically, it's pushed open manually and then it's just assisted the rest of the way.
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2001
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- 2,750
Well, here's my 2 cents. My fiance is from Peoria and I've been in Tazewell county and have been to the Para-Dice **** hole, er Casino. Not only was I once denied access (I am over 21) to the casino, they also wanted to confiscate my MO ID. The people who operate the Para-Dice are 100% ASSCLOWNS! As far as Tazewell county, I have no doubts that they would arrest someone over something so stupid. Sounds like total BS to me.
Matt
Matt
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- Dec 10, 2000
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- 201
Like Tombstone said earlier. Lets not take the blame off the cuunt I mean cop.
If he was just doing his job enforcing the law then he should know the law. IMO I think that that ding dong knows exactly what an automatic/switch blade is. To arrest a citizen for carrying a finger nail cleaner with a flipper is a clear abuse of authority. He and the casino's security just needed to feel important that night and Sisk just happened to be their victim.
Dumholtz sounds like the type of cop that would empty his magazine on you for pulling out your wallet. Then he would reload and clean out half the second mag.
Dammit! I'm still pist!
I don't like to call people names but abuse of authority just burns me up.
sunnee
If he was just doing his job enforcing the law then he should know the law. IMO I think that that ding dong knows exactly what an automatic/switch blade is. To arrest a citizen for carrying a finger nail cleaner with a flipper is a clear abuse of authority. He and the casino's security just needed to feel important that night and Sisk just happened to be their victim.
Dumholtz sounds like the type of cop that would empty his magazine on you for pulling out your wallet. Then he would reload and clean out half the second mag.
Dammit! I'm still pist!
I don't like to call people names but abuse of authority just burns me up.
sunnee
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2001
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- 346
If someone pulled this on me, I'd laugh, kick him in the balls and shove it up his ass!
Mongo ... thanks .. you made my day with this comment ... I'm still laughing!
As to the issue in question - I wonder if the law said "LEO's must abide by the law" whether or not they would ... in ALL cases.
Mongo ... thanks .. you made my day with this comment ... I'm still laughing!
As to the issue in question - I wonder if the law said "LEO's must abide by the law" whether or not they would ... in ALL cases.
dano
Gold Member
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- Oct 3, 1998
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- 1,631
Abuse of authority by enforcing a law? Nope.
The cop bashing in all the threads like these is amazing. He was doing his job, and I highly doubt he had a personal vandetta against a chive wielding person.
The burden of proof that the knife WAS NOT illegal lies in the end-user.
Just because the item was bought in a store doesn't mean it was a legal item.
All these assisted opening knives are barely skirting most switchblade laws, and there is going to be more cases like the one noted.
--dan
The cop bashing in all the threads like these is amazing. He was doing his job, and I highly doubt he had a personal vandetta against a chive wielding person.
The burden of proof that the knife WAS NOT illegal lies in the end-user.
Just because the item was bought in a store doesn't mean it was a legal item.
All these assisted opening knives are barely skirting most switchblade laws, and there is going to be more cases like the one noted.
--dan
- Joined
- Dec 2, 1999
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- 12,249
No. I don't agree.
I will agree that once someone has been declared to be in possession of an illegal knife, then it no longer is a police judgement manner, they have to arrest him.
But then it's up the the prosecuters to prove them guilty.
It would be nice if everyone was a subject matter expert, but no one is, so inevitably there will be "test" and "educational" cases, like this one.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2001
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- 1,137
Yeah let's tone down the cop bashing for a second here. Put yourself in his shoes. You don't know jack about knives. Kershaw? WTF is that? Get the point? A security guard calls you to his office and says, "hey lookit here officer I confinscated this blade from a man who's currently in my casino." You being the officer that you are take a look at this tiny little knife and go, "So?" and the guard presses the little flipper on the back the blade goes snick and if it's the first you've ever seen of it, well that's a freaking switchblade in my book. I don't blame the cop for a second. The guard had no damn business fooling around with the knife in the first place. Kershaw needs to get their asses in to court and back this guy up. That's the way I see it.
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- Oct 31, 1998
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I'm sorry if some feel it's cop bashing to expect someone to perform their duties properly.They need not to be top law experts,but I expect satisfactory knowledge and basic english comprehension.No knife expert be needed to decifer that Statue.If someone doesn't know the difference between a knife blade and handle they have no business in Law Enforcement,or at least not enforcing something they don't completely understand.Had that been me arrested,after I took care of getting back my freedom,everyone would be getting sued including the Officer with the reading disability."Testing" not be done at US Citizens expense.
edited to add.Make no mistake,I have the utmost respect for Law Enforcements difficult job.There are just some areas of the job where there is no room for mistakes.This person not only lost his freedom temporarily,but had to most likely be burdened with the financial costs of getting a decent defense attorney.
edited to add.Make no mistake,I have the utmost respect for Law Enforcements difficult job.There are just some areas of the job where there is no room for mistakes.This person not only lost his freedom temporarily,but had to most likely be burdened with the financial costs of getting a decent defense attorney.
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2000
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- 201
Cop bashing? Burden of proof? End user? Please, give me a break. If I was to purchase a knife from some guy who walked up to me at the gas station and said: " Hey Dude, I've got these awesome knives in the back of my van." Okay, now that's a end user decision. On the other hand If I purchased a knife that was available at every sporting goods store and every Walmart in America, does the thought ever cross my mind that "hey this could be illegal."
As for cop bashing and abuse of authority, Good Lord!! The guy left a Chive and a sticky note with the casino security. Then willing came in when he was paged. Then he was hand cuffed for a Chive. A Chive!! Just run out to Walmart and look at it. It's a frickin Chive! Officer Bumhbutsz did not have to treat Mr. Sisk in that mammer.
Unlike Mongo, I'd flick the flipper after I shoved it up his ass.
sunnee
As for cop bashing and abuse of authority, Good Lord!! The guy left a Chive and a sticky note with the casino security. Then willing came in when he was paged. Then he was hand cuffed for a Chive. A Chive!! Just run out to Walmart and look at it. It's a frickin Chive! Officer Bumhbutsz did not have to treat Mr. Sisk in that mammer.
Unlike Mongo, I'd flick the flipper after I shoved it up his ass.
sunnee
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- Jul 11, 2001
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Me thinks you'd have had your ass handed to you for that and likely more than a misdemeanor charge, but that's not the point.
Where the chive is sold isn't either. You and I and every other knife nut knows that it's spring assisted but for anyone who's only seen it opened with the flipper it's an auto. End of story man it's an automatic. If auto's are against the law then technically the cop was in the right. Now I'll grant you the chive is damn near laughable in size and threat factor but that's not the point. From what I read into that story the cop was very civil about the whole deal, read him his rights and then put the cuffs on him. If you don't resist there's nothing too bad about getting cuffed. Dude was under arrest and that's procedure, I don't see any indicators in that story that tell me the cop was in the wrong. Of course with a chive I don't think the guy was either.
This is why I said Kershaw needs to be in that court room defending this guy and their knife.
Where the chive is sold isn't either. You and I and every other knife nut knows that it's spring assisted but for anyone who's only seen it opened with the flipper it's an auto. End of story man it's an automatic. If auto's are against the law then technically the cop was in the right. Now I'll grant you the chive is damn near laughable in size and threat factor but that's not the point. From what I read into that story the cop was very civil about the whole deal, read him his rights and then put the cuffs on him. If you don't resist there's nothing too bad about getting cuffed. Dude was under arrest and that's procedure, I don't see any indicators in that story that tell me the cop was in the wrong. Of course with a chive I don't think the guy was either.
This is why I said Kershaw needs to be in that court room defending this guy and their knife.
dano
Gold Member
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- Oct 3, 1998
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- 1,631
Sorry, Mr. 1 Post, if I scared you. Like I said, the End-user has the burden to prove it was not illegal. More simply put, his defense in this criminal matter must hinge on the knife being legal. The State has the burden of proof to determine the knife is illegal. It's not a hard concept.
So, this Officer should not have arrested this person? Discretion is a huge part of Law Enforcement, and it is not known how much discretion this Officer and Agency possess.
For example, if this occcured in California, I'd need a citizen's arrest from the Security person to arrest the knife's owner, who left the knife w/Security. This is because a Police Officer in Cali. cannot make a misdemeanor arrest without witnessing it (a switchblade in Cali. is a misdemeanor). I wouldn't accept the arrest from the Security person, because I believe the knife doesn't fall under the Switchblade provision (though it's VERY close). Does the Officer in the original post have the same latitude? Seems like he does not.
Here's California's Switchblade Law, how would you interpret it in relation to the original post:
"653k. Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's
area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the
public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells,
offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any
other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in
length is guilty of a misdemeanor.
For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a
knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a
spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other
similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more
inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick
of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other
mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by
any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not
include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure
applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to
the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism
that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade,
or that biases the blade back toward its closed position."
Here's the Illinois Statute:
(720 ILCS 5/24‑1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑1)
Sec. 24‑1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or
carries any bludgeon, black‑jack, slung‑shot, sand‑club, sand‑bag, metal knuckles, throwing star, or any knife,commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife , or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material or compressed gas;"
A Chive works off a spring (more of a leaf spring) in the handle, which is opened by hand pressure applied to the "flipper" on the back of the blade.
Upon reading that, seems most of these assisted openers are illegal. It's going to take several cases to figure these out.
--dan
So, this Officer should not have arrested this person? Discretion is a huge part of Law Enforcement, and it is not known how much discretion this Officer and Agency possess.
For example, if this occcured in California, I'd need a citizen's arrest from the Security person to arrest the knife's owner, who left the knife w/Security. This is because a Police Officer in Cali. cannot make a misdemeanor arrest without witnessing it (a switchblade in Cali. is a misdemeanor). I wouldn't accept the arrest from the Security person, because I believe the knife doesn't fall under the Switchblade provision (though it's VERY close). Does the Officer in the original post have the same latitude? Seems like he does not.
Here's California's Switchblade Law, how would you interpret it in relation to the original post:
"653k. Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's
area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the
public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells,
offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any
other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in
length is guilty of a misdemeanor.
For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a
knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a
spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other
similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more
inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick
of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other
mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by
any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not
include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure
applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to
the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism
that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade,
or that biases the blade back toward its closed position."
Here's the Illinois Statute:
(720 ILCS 5/24‑1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑1)
Sec. 24‑1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or
carries any bludgeon, black‑jack, slung‑shot, sand‑club, sand‑bag, metal knuckles, throwing star, or any knife,commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife , or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material or compressed gas;"
A Chive works off a spring (more of a leaf spring) in the handle, which is opened by hand pressure applied to the "flipper" on the back of the blade.
Upon reading that, seems most of these assisted openers are illegal. It's going to take several cases to figure these out.
--dan
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2003
- Messages
- 187
lets not forget the fact that he was charged with "unlawful use of a weapon"
what kind of sh*t is that?!?!
it was in his pocket, how was he "using" it. and i suppose that switchblades are technically considered weapons, this isn't even one, though that is apparently subject to enterpretation
i'd have sued all their asses. what a bunch of morons...
what kind of sh*t is that?!?!
it was in his pocket, how was he "using" it. and i suppose that switchblades are technically considered weapons, this isn't even one, though that is apparently subject to enterpretation
i'd have sued all their asses. what a bunch of morons...
vactor
Gold Member
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2000
- Messages
- 631
UUW has nothing to do with "using" a weapon. that is just the name of the statute (which is partly used to "sell" the bill in the legislature.) as a defense attorney, i would focus on "hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife" ... this knife opens by applying pressure to the blade of the knife, which is not part of the handle ... now, i have no idea whether this would work in front of a judge or a jury, but it would be a starting point, and possibly even the basis for a motion ... in any event, the laws in illinois as well as other states seem to be difficult to interpret, as well as (referring to handgun statutes) reducing public safety. in any event, i hope that Mr. Sisk ends up with a quality attorney and that he fights the case, at least pre trial, and puts himself in a position for a positive outcome. the problem for him also lies in the fact that he is inelligible for court supervision (resulting in eventual dismissal of the case) and can get nothing less than a conviction on his criminal background if he pleads to this charge or is found guilty thereof.
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2003
- Messages
- 72
isn't 2" auto even california legal. I thought that auto knives that small even in srict states are considered novelty type knives.
A chive isn't a switchblade a cop arresting you for one is a jerk. I could understand a whirlwind wich is my edc
A chive isn't a switchblade a cop arresting you for one is a jerk. I could understand a whirlwind wich is my edc