Kershaw Chive under attack in Illinois

I must first appologize to dano, chambers or anyone else that I may have been too eagered to argue. Even officer Umholtz. I wasn't there and so I shouldn't be too quick to past sentence. Its just that some laws in this country or any other country don't always make sence. I fail to see the danger in a switch blade or a butterfly knife to make it illegal. A 1 1/2" fixed blade or even a 1" box cutter/utility knife can be faster and more dangerous. Why aren't they illegal?
I was pouncing on officer Umholtz because he should know this and up hold the law accordingly. Mr. Sisk was nowhere near the knife nor was he doing anything illegal.





sunnee
 
Originally posted by dano
Sorry, Mr. 1 Post, if I scared you. Like I said, the End-user has the burden to prove it was not illegal. More simply put, his defense in this criminal matter must hinge on the knife being legal. The State has the burden of proof to determine the knife is illegal. It's not a hard concept.
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Wait, both sides do not have a burden, it is carried by one. If one side fails to prove their contention, the other hasn't got to do a thing, right? So which side is it?
 
only where the defendant is asserting and "raises" an "affirmative defense" (by establishing SOME facts that would allow the defendant to argue the defense) does the defense have to prove ANYTHING! the state ALWAYS has to prove the elements of a charge against the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
Originally posted by dano
"653k. Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's
area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the
public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells,
offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any
other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in
length is guilty of a misdemeanor.
For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a
knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a
spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other
similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more
inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick
of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other
mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by
any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not
include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure
applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to
the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism
that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade,
or that biases the blade back toward its closed position."


Here's the Illinois Statute:

(720 ILCS 5/24‑1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑1)
Sec. 24‑1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or
carries any bludgeon, black‑jack, slung‑shot, sand‑club, sand‑bag, metal knuckles, throwing star, or any knife,commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife , or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material or compressed gas;"


A Chive works off a spring (more of a leaf spring) in the handle, which is opened by hand pressure applied to the "flipper" on the back of the blade.

Upon reading that, seems most of these assisted openers are illegal. It's going to take several cases to figure these out.


--dan
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Maybe it's just me, but I understand the Statue.I really don't see where the confusion lies.Hand pressure isn't being applied anywhere to the handle with a button,spring,flip of the wrist,or other mechanical device.You have to manually move a flipper or thumstud as part of the blade on these type knives and overcome the intial resistance,which may be not much,but does not appear to fall victim to being "illegal"under the law as I read.I'm no legal expert,but Statues in general are supposed to be written in pretty lay terms.I think what happens is people are such sheeple and have a hatred for these evil tools,they step over their bounds of authority to make something fit in a Statue.
 
Quote:
(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or
carries any bludgeon, black‑jack, slung‑shot, sand‑club, sand‑bag, metal knuckles, throwing star, or any knife,commonly referred to as a switchblade knife

I wonder if the officer should have run to the nearest Wallmart after he herd that they are committing the hideous crime of selling illegal knives. WHY DIDN*T HE DO ANYTHING. :D :rolleyes: :barf: It is somewhat difficult to take this system seriously, not that ours is any better...

It is a funny thing that ordinary citizen cannot say that "I didn't know.." but it seems to be a perfectly acceptable defense for a LEO.

TLM

Edited for some splling mstakes.
 
Hmm, a couple thoughts:

(1) The language of law is not clear-cut in this situation, mostly because when the law was written there were no "spring-assisted" knives that weren't switchblades operated by pressing a device in the handle. If you asked the drafters at the time whether they MEANT to cover a variant such as the spring-assist, they would probably have said yes.

(2) but as it is, the language is is not specific enough to be claer-cut one way or the other.
"a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife."
One could argue that, by pressing the flipper attached to the spine of the handle when the blade is folded, one is applying hand pressure to a device (the spring-assist) contained in the handle of the knife. Therefore there is an arguable good-faith basis for the cop to believe that the knife was in fact an illegal "switchblade."

(3) however there is a presumption of leniency in interpreting criminal statutes - if it's unclear, always err on the side of not prosecuting. You would have to be a pretty big knob, as a prosecutor, to push this case if that's all you had on the guy. Any self-respecting judge would give you the fish-eye and let the defendant go, with apologies for his trouble (again, assuming this was the only bad conduct charged; if there was other bad conduct, there is a greater likelihood that law enforcement will bring the hammer down any way they can).

(4) So the state legislature is probably going to have to resolve this question. If the feds don't get there first. Eventually there will be law specifying whether these knives are unlawful or not.

(5) BUT to me the main point is that this cop, in this instance, was a freaking a$$clown. If you come up on a dubious situation like this, where the guy has given no trouble, what the hell are you doing arresting him!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? If you think it's really illegal you can confiscate it informally & send the guy on his way (no, it's not by the book, but it's done all the time). I've worked with a lot of big-city hardass coppers, and NONE of them would be such jerks - they have real criminals to worry about. Sounds like this trooper was trying to impress someone, or meet a quota or something, or just see what it was like to arrest someone. That to me shows a real lack of class and decency as a cop.
 
It's a gray area open to interpretation.

On another note, I live near a city where the Officers will issue citations for just about anything, irregardless of the situation or circumstances. Some Departments operate like that; giving no discretion to their Officers.

--dan
 
It's not gray, and it's not open to interpretation. If you can open it by using some device in the handle, it's a switchblade under Illinois law.

If you cannot do that, but must instead push on the blade itself, then it is not a switchblade under Illinois law. The law says absolutely nothing about spring or torsion assists except those of one very specific type--the ones built into the handle of a knife which allow the user to open the blade without actually manually pushing it open. To interpret the law the way you have, you'd have to outlaw knives with thumbholes, disks and studs. After all, they have devices you push on to open the blade, and they're sorta next to or in between the handles when the knife is closed, even though, just like the Chive's flipper, they are part of the blade and not the handle.

I agree that it's hard to blame the police officer for mistakenly thinking the knife is a switchblade under Illinois law. However, the prosecuting attorneys do NOT have that defense. They screwed this man even though they knew the law. It's disgusting. Just another conviction statistic to them, I suppose.

Fishface:

1. Irrelevant. Maybe they would have written a law to outlaw these knives, but they didn't. More importantly, they didn't vote on it or PASS it. We don't know if it WOULD pass until it's debated and voted upon. Why on earth would we set the preceedent of arresting and prosecuting people for actions we know are not against current law because we ASSUME that the legislature PROBABLY wants to ban those actions and we ASSUME that the legislature PROBABLY has enough support to pass such a ban?

2. One could argue that, but it would be deflated pretty quickly by simply holding up the knife and showing that the flipper is NOT "attached to the spine of the handle." If it were, there would be no debate about the legality of the knife. It isn't.

3. Precisely.

4. Well, I have no doubt that they'll try to step in. Can't have a situation where something is neither mandated nor prohibited, after all. ;) However, I don't think it's necessary. Then again, you probably don't either.

5. I'll agree that I would have handled it differently, but I'm not going to call him a clown. Maybe he has some deep conviction about the War On Switchblades. Maybe some finger-snapping greaser kilt his Paw with a switchblade back in the day and he has sworn revenge.
All kidding aside, I'm not sure I wouldn't prefer my day in court over having my knife stolen by some cop! Clearly the victim in this case didn't see it that way.
 
I'd like to make a citizens arrest on my pants cause it automatically pops open my Emerson Commander.




sunnee
 
wow, that is EXCELLENT news. please do keep us updated when information is available for public release, even though i know it probably will be a little while. courts ove pretty slowly. and a big :thumbup to Ken and Kershaw for responding to this!!
 
Kershaw has a major financial interest in this. They are going to have to invest in the defense or else face some big-time $$$ troubles.:rolleyes:
 
"The statute is the statute," Hector said. "And we enforce the statute. We don't make the law; we just enforce them. That's our job. Other than that, we can't discuss ongoing cases."
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Total BS, Pontious Pilate would be proud. LEO's have descretion, they don't enforce every statute (especially against their own). WHat rod of a trooper would go for this arrest? A guy who volutarily hands over his knife is not a criminal, or planning some crime.

Any LEO's here? Would you arrest?

Paul
 
I'm not sure how I actually feel about this situation. Because, face it. The governemt is sticking to their story by way of semantic interpretation, we're sticking to our position by way of a loophole. And that's what it is, it's a loophole to sidestep the law. And the Speed Safe knives are basically automatic knives that happen to sidestep most laws.

Of course, I believe all laws that restrict knives based on opening method to be complete and utter horsepucky; there's nothing about an auto or a balisong that makes it more dangerous than a 2handed opener of the same size. All you can do is sit and spin and grumble about it and write your congressmen.
 
Again, the morons of the law did it again! There have been several other cases in the U.S where Kershaw stepped up to the plate to defend their knife....wish it would happen for this guy.

It is just silly :mad: Can't people just use their head & make a judgement call instead of going by the law book which obviously needs updating on this matter?!

Hell, even Sears has the Chive for sale. What are they so afraid of? It is assisted, but not an automatic. It just sickens me.

I posted this before & I'll post it again.

I checked with my local yocals about the knife laws & NONE of them knew what size was legal. Seemed like if they "thought" it to be illegal, then it was. but how am I supposed to know if they don't even know?! I don't ever use them for anything bad.....it's just all confusing. I have tried to read Illinois knife laws & they are soooooo screwy! They need to revise them & do it now. Funny, auto's are illegal, but yet I can open my Benchmade axis lock quicker than you can. So what.....manuals are going to be next just becasue you can open them quickly with one hand & close them with one hand?

I'm am just sick of all of the crap :mad:


Sorry about the ranting.....aaaahhhhh, I feel better....
 
Is there any news on this issue? I am interested in the outcome of this issue since in my state (Texas) the issue would likely be in a gray area. Being both a criminal defense lawyer and a knife lover increases my interest also.

I have been reading about auto opening and assisted opening knives for some time now and have been very curious how they would be handled in Texas. I have not, unfortunately, seen one in person.


When I was younger and was a prosecutor, a man was arrested for having a butterfly knife with a blade about 1.5 inches long. When I was shown the knife, I felt the arrest was stupid, even though it followed the law. I dismissed the case. Prosecutors are supposed to have discretion to do that and it sounds like they did the same in the Illinois case.

For what it is worth, this is a short summary of Texas' statures. It is by no means comprehensive.

Definition of a switchblade here is:

(11) "Switchblade knife" means any knife that has a blade that folds,
closes, or retracts into the handle or sheath, and that:

(A) opens automatically by pressure applied to a button or other
device located on the handle; or

(B) opens or releases a blade from the handle or sheath by the force
of gravity or by the application of centrifugal force.

There is no length requirement. There is no definition of springblade knife.

A switchblade knife is considered a prohibited weapon (cannot be owned or possessed it is incidental to dealing with a switchblade knife, springblade knife, or short-barrel firearm solely as an antique or curio).

We also have strict restrictions on other knives.

Illegal knives may generally only be carried on one's own property. An illegal knife is defined this way:

(6) "Illegal knife" means a:
(A) knife with a blade over five and one-half inches;
(B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being thrown;
(C) dagger, including but not limited to a dirk, stilletto, and
poniard;
(D) bowie knife;
(E) sword; or
(F) spear.
 
ReconSniper said:
Good thing I don't live in Illinois. Those guys would call the SWAT teams on me for carrying my Gerber Emerson Alliance Auto. Sisk needs to go get himself an Emerson "Wave" model knife. Idiocy has no borders. Just another reason NOT to go to casinos.
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I view it as another reason to boycott the shitwad state of ILLinois. :mad:

-Jeffrey
 
skstevens said:
Is there any news on this issue? I am interested in the outcome of this issue since in my state (Texas) the issue would likely be in a gray area. Being both a criminal defense lawyer and a knife lover increases my interest also.

(6) "Illegal knife" means a:
(A) knife with a blade over five and one-half inches;
(B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being thrown;
(C) dagger, including but not limited to a dirk, stilletto, and
poniard;
(D) bowie knife;
(E) sword; or
(F) spear.
Click to expand...

Wait a minute... In Texas, a BOWIE KNIFE is ILLEGAL?!

And what about swords... spears... How can a knife be illegal simply for having a blade over 5.5 inches?! What about kitchen knives?!

Is this "illegal knife" definition strictly for CARRY, or for simple OWNERSHIP?!

GOD the law can be fuggin' stupid!

-Jeffrey
 
currently living in illinois and i have a few thoughts

thought one,
last time a LEO hasseled me about my knives he told me he thought switchblades were legel in il unless they were used in the commision of a felony. now that's what i call well trained!!!!!

thought two,
not for the faint of heart or the sensible
it is the right AND DUTY of a free citizen of this country to resist unlawfull arrest. in this instance it seemed like the guy wasn't sure if he was breaking ther law and so submission was CLEARLY the sensible choice. if you're absolutly certain that you are not breaking the law, then what is sensible?


thought three.
danno says "On another note, I live near a city where the Officers will issue citations for just about anything, irregardless of the situation or circumstances. Some Departments operate like that; giving no discretion to their Officers." :grumpy: :grumpy:
one word, Bullshit
ok a few more. i dare you to check how many lawyers, judges, rich old white guys (the mayor or local bigwigs), and or leo got speeding tickets. also i can't believe that any sensible person really believes that all of the cops in this jurisdiction pulled over every speeder they ever saw. this would include (if all enforcement was independent of situation) people who speed by while the cop is already involved in something. it is not possible to strip leo of their discretion, nor is it advisable. it is possible, and in my opinion necessary, to train them better, much, much, much better
 
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