Kershaw Link in 20CV... for $80

I don't have much experience with ZTs, but I suspect geometry plays a part in their edge retention issues. There was another C&A video showing how there was an improvement in heat treatment on more recent knives, but I'm assuming they probably try to heat treat on the tough side rather than for pure edge retention.

There's only a little over a $50 difference between the Buck 110 in 420HC and the sprint of the Buck 110 in 20CV
 
MarkN86 said:
I don't have much experience with ZTs, but I suspect geometry plays a part in their edge retention issues. There was another C&A video showing how there was an improvement in heat treatment on more recent knives, but I'm assuming they probably try to heat treat on the tough side rather than for pure edge retention.

There's only a little over a $50 difference between the Buck 110 in 420HC and the sprint of the Buck 110 in 20CV
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It definitely doesn't help that they have below average blade geometry for cutting, but a controlled test would seek to make the edge angle the same, and would be testing edge retention (how well that immediate edge holds up) rather than cutting ability (how much force a knife takes to make a cut over time, which is influenced by the primary blade grind, not just the edge or heat treatment/steel). Pete does an edge retention test, while Ankerson for example does more of a cutting ability test. In edge retention tests, they get outcut by other knives with the same edge angle and edge finish, even in so-called "lesser" steels. Even in Pete's video about the S35VN that did better than the previous ZTs, it was still on the low end of that steel. Their 20CV tested low as well.
 
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marrenmiller said:
It definitely doesn't help that they have below average blade geometry for cutting, but a controlled test would seek to make the edge angle the same, and would be testing edge retention (how well that immediate edge holds up) rather than cutting ability (how much force a knife takes to make a cut over time, which is influenced by the primary blade grind, not just the edge or heat treatment/steel). Pete does an edge retention test, while Ankerson for example does more of a cutting ability test. In edge retention tests, they get outcut by other knives with the same edge angle and edge finish, even in so-called "lesser" steels. Even in Pete's video about the S35VN that did better than the previous ZTs, it was still on the low end of that steel. Their 20CV tested low as well.
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I think I probably won’t be getting ZTs anytime soon then lol. For now, I’ll stick with Spyderco for high-end racehorse knives and Cold Steel for dependable workhorse knives. Neither brand has disappointed me yet.
 
marrenmiller said:
Yeah I'm not sure why this doesn't seem to be more well-known. Tons of people just say their ZT knives have "always worked fine for them", as if that's in any way indicative of a good heat treatment. Their knives will hold an edge, sure, but not for as long as other knives in the same steels made with better heat treatments. When lower-end steels like BDN1, 52100, S30V/S35VN, or AUS-8 are outcutting ZT's 20CV at the same edge angle and finish, it should signal that maybe something about their 20CV is off.
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Just curious, how many ZTs do you own? How many have you carried and used? I have several and am more than satisfied with the performance of ZTs 20CV, M390, S35VN, and so on.

I must be one of "those" people that say they hold an edge just fine for me.

But at the end of the day, isn't that all that matters?
 
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grownstar said:
Just curious, how many ZTs do you own? How many have you carried and used? I have several and am more than satisfied with the performance of ZTs 20CV, M390, S35VN, and so on.

I must be one of "those" people that say they hold an edge just fine for me.

But at the end of the day, isn't that all that matters?
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Doing a quick count from memory, I've had at least 6. Of those, 5 were definitely carried, used quite a bit, and reprofiled/sharpened. At the moment, I have and enjoy carrying an 0308.

I'm glad you like them. You may not care about the heat treatment, and that's fine. They might hold an edge for you "just fine", and maybe that's all you're looking for. But some people do notice and care. I don't want to pay $300 for a ZT and have it not hold an edge as befitting a $300 knife in 20CV.
 
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I work in commercial maintenance...I’ve used KAI’s steels (s35, 20cv, the dreaded Elmax that supposedly folds whenever the sun peeks out from behind the clouds, even 8cr and 420hc) and I have zero issues with any of it. I’m cutting cardboard, deburring copper and aluminum pipe, prying, scraping paint, cutting drywall, etc and haven’t ever thought or said to myself “this heat treat isn’t right or the edge should’ve held up longer”, but then again, I don’t watch cut tests videos, I don’t look up steel recipes or research metallurgical documentation, I’m just a blue collar guy who uses his knives.

I know many enjoy watching cut tests, reading about steels and looking at edge retention chart, and that’s cool I guess, you do you and rock on. On paper the steels might look a certain way but in use it’s hard for me to notice any difference. Heck, even Emerson’s 154cm works well enough for me and the consensus is that it’s outdated and not on par with most of the widely used steels on the market.

I’m not sure what the heat treat on the 20cv Link is, but I’m sure it’ll perform well. Will it performs as well as another company’s use of it? I don’t know and I won’t pretend to know but I can tell you from my experience that KAI’s 20cv works well. What that means to anyone else is probably nothing, but I’m not anyone else so all I can do is keep cutting. The Link is an awesome model, I like the frn/420hc model the most but that new one looks really cool and if I already didn’t have a few Links, I’d get that one next.
 
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