kershaw - poor steel choice: 8600 model = 4cr14

dirc said:
420HC is not the same as 4cr14 - it has between 0.46-0.5% carbon, it also has a decent amount of vanadium (0.3%) for grain refinement

4cr14 doesn`t exist as a separate spec - it`s likely 4cr13 - which specifies 12-14% chrome... this spec says that carbon can be as low as 0.36% (and there is no vanadium)

Let`s ask Larrin Larrin what levels of HRC can be expected?
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So when you said 51 hrc you didn't actually know.
 
knifecenter carries them all...

they list these models as 3cr13:
1306BW Filter
1301BW Starter

4cr13 or 4cr14:
1319 Grinder
1365 Misdirect
1324 Cathode
8600 Portal

and mystery 'stainless steel' models
1338
1318

Personally, I'll stay away from all of the above, Kershaw does sell 8cr13 blades in the injections and many other low cost models which are a great value
 
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craytab said:
Not sure what you expect from a $14 knife geared towards the big box store crowed. Kershaw makes more money off their low end stuff than their high end stuff. We likely wouldn't even have ZT if most of the knife using population didn't buy these Walmart knives.
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We must keep the masses ignorant so we knife aristocrats can subsidize the production of our high end vanity knives!

Most people know steel comes in 3 types, stainless steel, and not stainless steel. For the ultimate high end they have something called “surgical stainless” aka Samurai sword steel.
 
dirc said:
420HC is not the same as 4cr14 - it has between 0.46-0.5% carbon, it also has a decent amount of vanadium (0.3%) for grain refinement

4cr14 doesn`t exist as a separate spec - it`s likely 4cr13 - which specifies 12-14% chrome... this spec says that carbon can be as low as 0.36% (and there is no vanadium)

Let`s ask Larrin Larrin what levels of HRC can be expected?
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0.4C-14Cr probably tops out around 58 Rc for inexpensive industrial heat treatment, though it can be much lower of course.
 
The only numbers I've seen (on some reseller websites that do list HRC for these knives) are 52-55 (and that was for 4cr13)
I would guess 3cr13 would be lower...

Larrin, do you expect they might use a low quench temperature and then skip tempering stages completely? (IE low-cost industrial HT for this class of steel?)
Or is it more likely they do a single round of low-temp for the temper?
 
I’ve never heard of skipping tempering entirely, though I’m not familiar with every extreme cost-savings strategy. More likely to use extremely short tempering cycles. It’s very difficult to speculate about the exact heat treatment equipment and process.
 
I guess Kershaw is hoping some paper/cardboard cutting..nothing hard use.
Of course, these tend to be bought by beginners or budget minded people. However, some of these designs are actually very nice! I'm a big fan of the "harpoon" style blades like the Link or ZT 0095.
 
99.987% (or thereabouts) of knife buyers don't care about what stainless steel their new knife has, and don't know the differences anyway.
They want something that won't rust, and is easy to sharpen (if they bother with sharpening at all).
Most people do not need a "super steel" blade.
I know I don't. My 420HC or 440A blades (or even those of 1095) will skin two ... maybe two anna half deer before it needs stropping. They are easy to bring back to "arm hair shaving sharpness", even out in the field. Why do I need anything "better"?
The "obsolete" steels do what I need. Just as they did for my however many Great's you care to go back grandparents -- and yours, for that matter. :)
Kershaw sells knives for a variety of users. Those that want a basic no frills knife to those who insist on all the bells and whistles with the latest and "greatest" blade steel(s).
 
wow, please re-read the thread. In no way am I arguing that kershaw should use supersteels in all models.
This thread has nothing at all to do with super steel. You're trying to setup a strawman argument to troll me? No thanks.

The complaint is simply that they have gone to the cheapest steels possible - using 3cr13 and 4cr13 junk steel in many of their low priced knives.
I used to give kershaw my unrestricted recommendation, which is no longer possible.

I would not be making this complaint if kershaw lowest end steel was 440a or 420hc. Those are miles better than 3cr13 and 4cr13
 
Most buyers are happy as long as a knife cuts stuff. And, as improbable as it seems, when a knife goes dull, or starts to lose structural integrity, they simply go buy another cheap knife. And there are plenty of them out there. WE, the more sophisticated cutlery enthusiasts, but probably mostly just me, see this as a sign of a serious lack of some mental capacity on the part of the aforementioned 'average' user. And even if they knew how I thought of them, most would not care. Which is as it should be.

People ought not to be using tools they are not qualified to operate. Forklifts or cutlery, it's no different.
 
How about this,a guy/gal buying a $15-$20 knife doesn’t have the sharpening equipment needed for harder steel and in the end a sharp knife is a functional knife
 
GermanyChris said:
How about this,a guy/gal buying a $15-$20 knife doesn’t have the sharpening equipment needed for harder steel and in the end a sharp knife is a functional knife
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You can sharpen 8cr13mov on anything. Anything with less than .5% carbon like 4cr or 3cr doesn't even get hard enough for regular use in my opinion. I'm not a steel snob. My favorite steels are 154CM, AUS 8A, and BD-1/Gin-1(G2).
 
Wunderbar said:
You can sharpen 8cr13mov on anything. Anything with less than .5% carbon like 4cr or 3cr doesn't even get hard enough for regular use in my opinion. I'm not a steel snob. My favorite steels are 154CM, AUS 8A, and BD-1/Gin-1(G2).
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I have one Kershaw in 8cr my lansky box didn’t do much for it so it gets hit with my diamonds like everything else.
 
A couple years ago around Christmas time, I heard a guy mention that he wanted to buy someone a knife. He said that he wasn’t talking about a cheap knife, but a good one that costed around 20 dollars. A LARGE portion of the knife market is comprised of people that don’t understand why anyone would pay a premium price for a simple cutting tool.
These are the people Kershaw and Spyderco are targeting with their budget line. There isn’t a thing wrong with those low cost knives, as long as the consumer is pleased with their performance. Kershaw is a proven brand, I don’t think anyone should question the entire brand over using low grade steels in their low tier budget line.
 
dirc said:
I really like many kershaw models... so I was rather shocked to see they used 4cr14 steel in the 8600.

I thought the lowest price steel they used was either 8cr13, or 1.4116 or 420hc all of which are not bad for budget knives, but 4cr14?? Really kershaw? I mean, you would be lucky to hit 51 hrc on that wouldn't you??

I just had to mention it since it seems very unlike them to use such a poor choice in steel.

8600_profile_1020x400.png
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:eek: I've got one of these on order .

Blade is merely 3cr13 IIRC !

So will probably not actually cut warm butter ? :confused::rolleyes:
 
I agree with the OP. Bad decision. At least make another brand, so we can easily identify which ones are watered-down versions of the real knives...
 
craytab said:
I don't get why this is so upsetting to some.
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It only bugs me when the design is otherwise good or interesting. For instance, I'll be surfing knives on Blade HQ and see one of these. I'll say "wow, here is a Kershaw I never saw before". I'll get excited and click on it only to scroll down and see 3Cr13Mov or 5Cr15Mov. I've already stopped buying 8Cr13Mov for myself but even with a cheap gift in mind, do I really want to dip below that?

One that really got to me was the Hotwire. This knife came out before I'd drawn a line on knife steel. I was just excited to see a cool design for cheap and I bought it on the spot. I fell in love with the overall size and shape of the knife. It was big enough to use well but so easy to pop into a pocket and forget about it. It's remarkably handy. It's decently ergonomic and has a great little blade shape for EDC tasks. The 3Cr13Mov is just a kick in the pants. Kershaw has no other knife quite like this and the role gets filled with garbage steel.
 
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