Kershaw Speedsafe illegal in CA ?

You mean the cop or the guy I work with?? :confused:


My coworker was giving me an fyi after we discussed weather or not the speed safe was a problem for law enforcement.

I think the cop was using his palm as a measure, ie probably not over 4 inches in blade length. The Blur's blade is 3 3/8 long max.

No problem with the speesdafe on the officers part apparently.

Yes that does sound kinda strange but I think that the police have the option of enforcing knife carry laws on a person by person basis.

My coworker is a student and a regular kind of guy not a hard case.
This sounds so utterly stupid. How would a LEO's hand be a means test

for deter ming whether the blade was legal. Ever heard of a ruler? I"M unfamiliar with any written codified laws, which allow for rule of thumb subjectivity test!!! Unless of course you where stopped by Robocop!!!
 
I am normally the "legal defense team" Kershaw sends out on many cases including cases in CA. I have been on at least 20 Kershaw AO cases in California. All of the cases I have been on have ended one of two ways. Either the charges are dropped after I file my report with the D.A. or they are found not guilty by a ruling of factual law.

Fact of the matter is they are completely legal, that may not however stop you from being arrested. If you are arrested, you know how to reach me.;)


THANK YOU! That really does make me feel much better about carrying a speedsafe knife!

I do try and keep a low profile, but if it ever comes up I will most definitely give you a holler ! :thumbup:
 
What is really funny is when I carry my Kershaw AO (my edc) into the Police Dept and then use it to break the evidence seal on an envelope containing a Kershaw AO.:D
 
Thatnk you clark for eduacating the cops in my area! You hit the nose with those stations. That's right where I live. Only city I see missing is La Habra. Have they been educated already.

Btw, even though I'm a minor, the rules still stay the same correct? And I mean just on the streets and weekends. With our schools' no tolerance program it's a BIG no-no to bring a knife to school.
Thanks for your work.
 
Sorry, the law might not define AOs but IT DOES define switchblades. There is no way to read 653k and conclude that an AO is a switchblade. It DOES NOT open automatically. It requires manual action acting on the blade alone to open the knife. The torsion bar only "assists" in the final stage of opening.

Ca LEOs have bad training when it comes to knife laws. That is the very reason I have been asked to construct training classes for Santa Ana PD. Orange County Sherrifs, Fullerton PD, Brea PD and Anahiem PD. After one two hour lecture to the Detective Division at Fullerton PD wrongfull knife arrests dropped 90%.

Add in the locker room lawschool that most officers practice and you get a bunch of LEOs who don't know real law from a breakfast menu.

that is what i was saying. they do not meet the switchblade requirements. but i also dont think it is as clear as you state. i agree, but could make an argument otherwise. in the end it is still our opinion.

with all the laws, codes, regulations, etc, and all the knife companies and technological developments, how can the law enforcement community stay current? no one can possibly know everything about every law.

it takes an expert in a specific area to be diligent enough to stay current, then disseminate the information. just because we like knives, it doesnt mean that everyone else in the world does, or cares.

i would bet most people would say an ao is a switchblade. the only way anyone knows the difference is education, and the difference is only semantic based on interpretaion of the verbage in the penal code. knife law is only one very small area of enforceable sections.

and the jab at the end is meant to serve what purpose?
 
I have never had any dealings La Habra Officers. I am generally contacted about every knife case in the area. So I am not sure if that means that La Habra is not making knife arrests or if the defendants are using private attorneys.

Mort, sorry but the courts, the DAs office and even the nature of the law puts your idea that opinion is involved in any way shape of form to bed.

Laws fall into many defendant categories. For this purpose the two types are opinion based laws and fact based law.

An opinion based law would be something such as “reckless endangerment”. Basically stated, any person who behaves in a manner that a rational person would or should know is likely to put others in danger of harm. That must be based purely on the opinion of the officers. There really is no quantative way to define that type of behavior. It is just what someone believes.

A fact based law is based on a set of easily defined items. For example, let’s say that it is unlawful to drive a car on Wednesday while wearing glasses. This is simply a series of yes or no questions. Is he driving a car, yes or no? Is it Wednesday, yes or no? Is he wearing glasses, yes or no? There is no opinion used and there is no room for interpretation.

653k is a fact based law. It does not say, “If a knife opens fast”. It gives a list of easily defined standards. Is the person on public or private property? Does the knife have a blade two inches or longer? Does the blade open automatically by the pressure on any type of button or release on the handle? And so on.

There is no opinion used in answering the questions asked by 653k. There is no grey area. Either it is a switchblade or it is not. If it is not a switchblade under the standards set in 653k then by definition it must be something other than a switchblade and not illegal under that law.

It also does not take a rocket scientist to answer the questions asked by 653k. There is some nomenclature; however I seem to remember as a police officer being required to carry a current reference guide to the penal code as well as a dictionary. With today’s technology it would take all of three minutes for an officer to find the answers to any questions he may have as to the meaning of the nomenclature of the law.

And at the end of the day, if you are taking a persons freedom away for violating a law, you better damn well know what the law actually means.

You always hear that ignorance of the law is no excuse. That stands true for LEOs as much as for everyone else. So to say that “they can’t know every law” is foolish at best. If you are enforcing it you better know it. PERIOD!
 
there is absolutely opinion and interpretation involved. the day of the week and direction of travel, for instance, may be indisputable facts, but when applying virtually any section, opinion is relevant. whether of the arresting officer, da's, defense, judge, or jury.

for example, you say that the torsion bar only assists opening of an ao toward the end of the action.

every ao i have seen is assisted once opening begins. it could be argued that the thumbstud is the mechanism which activates opening. a switchblade only opens "automatically" once some mechanism has been activated, not all on its own. it requires human intervention.

if someone believes this interpretation, the following language:

a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud

....becomes interpreted differently as well. since the thumbstud is not the sole "device" opening the knife, this exemption does not apply.


my other point was just to add some perspective. im not suggesting that an officer negligently arresting someone is appropriate. just that you are only focusing on one aspect of the vast array of laws that are enforced, and your interpretation of that law is not the only interpretation.

you seemed to be implying that unless you have said so, it is not "real law", but only a breakfast menu variation.

it is impossible to memorize the language in every code. often times the law must be referenced and discussed. if the officer decides the section is applicable, then the person is arrested/booked. if the court decides otherwise, then so be it, regardless of the avenue used to come to that decision.

does that make the arresting officer an idiot for having interpreted something in some way that the court has disagreed with? or that you disagree with?

no it doesnt. it is simply part of the checks and balances in the judicial system. very few laws are as black and white as you suggest.
 
Just to add a bit to the discussion. While it may not be a design intent, my whirlwind (even when new) will snap open with a snap of the wrist. If I am reading the law correctly, then this makes it a switchblade. I first found that it would snap open when I dropped it on the floor and it sprung open.
 
Just to add a bit to the discussion. While it may not be a design intent, my whirlwind (even when new) will snap open with a snap of the wrist. If I am reading the law correctly, then this makes it a switchblade. I first found that it would snap open when I dropped it on the floor and it sprung open.

yes, that is a possibility.

i have never made an arrest for 653k only, it has always been a secondary charge. and i have never made an arrest for an ao, though have encountered several.

mr. clark appears to have successfully had similar charges dropped/dismissed, though i dont know if the issue you present has come up.
 
It has come up many times.

It is simply a matter of referring to the Karnette amendment of 653K. The amendment inserted a exclusionary clause into the law. This clause was purposefully worded to prevent one handed opening knives (which by the nature of there designs can almost always flip open) from being classed as switchblades.

To be exempted from 653k a knife must (1) open with thumb pressure (case law includes any finger pressure not just the thumb) applied to the blade alone. It must also have ONE of the two following items. It must have a detent or a similar device that biases the blade toward the closed position.

All Kershaw AOs open with finger pressure on the blade, so that takes care of number one. All Kershaw AOs have a detent. As long as the detent is in working condition that takes care of number two. However, the torsion bar of the AO knife design also provides a biasing force towards the closed position. It forces the blade closed for aprox 20% of blade rotation, then it goes neutral for another 5-10% and then provides an opening force.

So while the law only requires that two of the three requirements be met, the Kershaw AOs meet all three.

That automatically kicks the exclusionary clause into play and makes the knife impossible to classify as a switchblade.
 
Just got back to this thread. And after reading the laws and coments from R.W. CLARK for all who are questioning the cop using his hand insted of a ruler, I think the cop was playing games with my co worker you know tying to see if he would say something stupid or incriminating, or just thought it would be funny to use his hand as a measure, which would be very inaccurate. I just don't know what that officer was thinking.
If that is what their traning is well Mr clark needs to pay a visit to manteca ca. police dept. and enlighten them.
Btw I respect law enforcement they are human just like the rest of us but they are only as good as their traning when it comes to the hundreds of laws and legal definitions that they have to enforce daily.
 
A piece of the legislative history for the change to section 653k:


Published in the July 18, 2001 edition of the Senate Daily Journal on page 2070.

DRAFT - LETTER TO THE SENATE DAILY JOURNAL

July 5, 2001

Mr. Gregory Schmidt
Secretary of the Senate

Dear Greg:

The purpose of this letter is to express the Legislature’s intent in enacting my SB 274, which makes amendments to Penal Code Section 653k.

Section 653k makes it a misdemeanor to make, sell or possess upon one’s person a switchblade in California. The statute was enacted in 1957 and provides a length definition of a switchblade knife. In 1996, AB 3314 (Ch. 1054) an exemption was created for one-handed folding knives. Recently, there has been concern that the language of the exemption is broadly read to apply to knives that are essentially switchblades, but are designed to fall under the language of the exemption.

In order to ensure that only legitimate one-handed opening knives are covered, SB 274 narrows the language to only allow knives to fall under the exemption from the switchblade law if that one-handed opening knife contains a detent or similar mechanism. Such mechanisms ensure there is a measure of resistance (no matter how slight) that prevents the knife from being easily opened with a flick of the wrist. Moreover, a detent or other mechanism is prudent and a matter of public safety as it will ensure that a blade will not inadvertently come open.

Although some one-handed opening knives can be opened with a strong flick of the wrist, so long as they contact a detent or similar mechanism that provides some resistance to opening the knife, then the exemption is triggered. These knives serve an important utility to many knife users, as well as firefighters, EMT personnel, hunters, fishermen, and others utilize one-handed opening knives.

The exemption created in 1996 was designed to decriminalize the legitimate use of these extremely functional tools by law-abiding citizens. SB 274 is not intended to interfere with those knife owners and users. The amendments to Section 653k accomplish this important purpose by establishing more objective criteria for determining whether a knife meets the intended exemption to the switchblade law.

Sincerely,
BETTY KARNETTE
Senator, 27th District
 
A guy I work with who just bought a Blur (after my talking up Kershaw Knives) was pulled over and the officer opened his knife and laid it across his his palm and said It was legal as long as it did not extend over the edge of his palm.

This never surprises me I've worked in a cutlery shop in LA county for 3 years and always ask local officers who stop by if what i'm carring that day is leagal and ALL I ever get is that: across the palm and maybe a "thats cutting it close son". I'll usaually ask his/her partner to conduct the same moronic test which produces amazing results!!!!!

Is there a standard issue palm length for leo's?
NO and I know thats the only ruler you have in the field, however I've heard a minimum of 2 dozen officers tell me it's an actual law!
WTF

It's not a valid argument to say LEO's cant possibly be aware of these laws when they're right there in that handy dandy computer in the crusier.
 
If any LEO is going to deprive a person of their Gog-given right to Liberty, then they Damn well do have an absolute responsibility to know exactly what they are arresting people for: to not know is to commit a crime. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
 
This never surprises me I've worked in a cutlery shop in LA county for 3 years and always ask local officers who stop by if what i'm carring that day is leagal and ALL I ever get is that: across the palm and maybe a "thats cutting it close son". I'll usaually ask his/her partner to conduct the same moronic test which produces amazing results!!!!!

Is there a standard issue palm length for leo's?
NO and I know thats the only ruler you have in the field, however I've heard a minimum of 2 dozen officers tell me it's an actual law!
WTF

It's not a valid argument to say LEO's cant possibly be aware of these laws when they're right there in that handy dandy computer in the crusier.

really?

the computer in my car doesnt have the laws on it. ive never seen one that can reference laws like you say. they are mobile digital terminals, used for dispatching calls, running cars/people through ncic and other databases, mapping routes, and writing reports.

you have no idea what you are talking about.
 
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If any LEO is going to deprive a person of their Gog-given right to Liberty, then they Damn well do have an absolute responsibility to know exactly what they are arresting people for: to not know is to commit a crime. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

what is a Gog-given right? how about proof reading before you post.

in any event, knowing the law, and knowing how every single knife in existence fits in, are two different things.
 
MDTs (mobile dispatch terminals), the computor in radio cars, do not have laws in them. They actually don't have much at all in them. They are really nothing more than a fancy text pager.

A new version developed over the last couple years will have alot more information as well as using a touch screen for all the vehicle functions. It will allow the officer to have alot more information as well as cut down on work load.
 
really?

the computer in my car doesnt have the laws on it. ive never seen one that can reference laws like you say. they are mobile digital terminals, used for dispatching calls, running cars/people through ncic and other databases, mapping routes, and writing reports.

you have no idea what you are talking about.

Yes you haven't.
And you have no idea whom you so blindly accuse of being a layman, I expect a childish response.
 
Yes you haven't.
And you have no idea whom you so blindly accuse of being a layman, I expect a childish response.

Well a known LEO and law representative, who may be a lawyer, have both indicated the car terminals do not have law information within them.

Please provide evidence to the contrary.
 
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