Kershaw Steel

[PG5768]

Thanks for bringing some factual info and the manufacturer's perspective to this thread, Thomas. :thumbup:

 

[knarfeng]

Thanks, Thomas.

"huffy" was a tongue-in-cheek description.

 

[knivesandguns]

Gotta love Thomas' replies :thumbup: He is very gracious in replying to all of these..accusations.

 

[SteelSnob]

How is the edge retention of 14c28 compared to VG10 at equal hardness?

 

[midnight flyer]

Thomas, come to the party as late as you want as long as you continue to bring actual facts with you, not the normal rumor, smut and hearsay that these threads devolve into.

After a fashion, we should just make a sticky to paste:

I'm right.

No, I'M right.

No, I am more right.

No, I am much more right.

Nuh - uh!

Uh - huh!


Fill in the details with little snippy jabs and almost facts based on things people claim to know, or know someone that does, and you will have a much shorter thread to arrive at the same end.

I am a fact loving kind of guy, so stay with us!

Robert

 

[Gator97]

Agreed. I'm just put off on why darksiders make it sound like max hardness is always “better”

I don't think folding knives constitute "always".
And yes, for my folders, light cutting fixed blades and most of the kitchen knives I do want max hardness. I don't have problems with sharpening, and in those knives I can clearly benefit from thin edges.
Yeah, I know a lot of people don't want super hard blades, they prefer ease of sharpening, and for Kershaw it's more sales and more cost effective too.
I just don't know why is it putting you off.

 

[The Mastiff]

I have to admit to being a dyed in the wool darksider with my folders. Running steel hard is how it should be done. The reasons are obvious.It just doesn't make sense to run ZDP, M2, and super blue more than 2 points below their max for me. M4, I can live with 62-63. On the other hand there are certain steels that just aren't suitable or designed for guys like me. I accept that.

For hard use knives it should be the optimum heat treat ( not just hardness) as well as geometry on the right steels. For a 9 inch chopping blade RC 66 ZDP would be idiotic in the extreme IMO. A RC 58-60 3V blade could be just right though.

I'm in no way saying production companies should make knives that cater to the minority user like me. It's just not in their interests to do so for many reasons. In this case lower hardness has nothing to do with lower quality.

Every now and then us "dark siders" will get lucky and get a JYD 2 Ti/SG2 @ RC 62, or a Stretch 2 ZDP at RC 65. I'm always surprised when these knives are made as there is always going to be someone who doesn't know what they are doing, but heard about this cool knife that buys it, buggers it up in a stupid act, and starts trolling campaigns on every forum around. The fact is the company takes a chance with it's reputation with these specialized knives just to please a few hundred core fans.

I'll often ask for these type knives in threads where appropriate, but I really recognize and hope others do it's just a dream spoken out loud, not a thought that my idea is better than a professional designer and engineering or marketing team at a major, quality manufacturer.

 

[DennisStrickland]

ditto to Mastiff on hardness & steel types. i heard so much as to chipping & corossion on zdp189 i hesitated buying a knife with this alloy.after acquiring an endura in zdp & beveling to a more acute angle i put it to the acid test with heavy slashing on muddy 1000 lb.hay bales. resharpened & was cutting vines in back yard & hit wire trellis very hard 3 times. no chipping on hay or wire. cut a tomato & left juices on blade 6 hrs. [ no discoloring] it seems to me most problems with alloys are caused by people whom do'nt know what they are doing.i'm not implying 440a will perform with vg10 or zdp.

 

[Joshua J.]

Agreed. I'm just put off on why darksiders make it sound like max hardness is always “better”

That's just how we roll.
You can cut the continental tectonic plates with a .0000009" thick edge sharpened to half a degree per side...
If the knife is at maximum hardness.

That's why no one's ever done it, too much power in the hands of too few people.

 

[thombrogan]

It's been rockwell tested at a professional lab. Kershaw actually claims to have 64+ rc 13C26, but nobody including myself has ever been able to reproduce it post-temper.

They've done it. I've used it. Moved easy under a belt sander and took forever with a diamond in a sharpening jig to sharpen.

As far as 'nobody claims,' though, that's a bit revisionist. Cliff Stamp claimed Roman Landes was able to harden AEB-L (the suspiciously similar alloy) to RC65. I know people in the Thomas family can harden it RC63, but not in a way that's viable for large-scale production.

Right now, there's a cult following among kitchen knife enthusiasts for AEB-L hardened in the RC57-58 range. Works the same as simple carbon steels in the same range of hardness, but doesn't smear brown schmutz on yellow onions when the blades are fresh off the stones.

 

[Gator97]

That's just how we roll.

Technically, that's how we sharpen and cut... Those hard, thin edges don't roll all that much.

 

[knarfeng]

I don't think folding knives constitute "always".
And yes, for my folders, light cutting fixed blades and most of the kitchen knives I do want max hardness. I don't have problems with sharpening, and in those knives I can clearly benefit from thin edges.
Yeah, I know a lot of people don't want super hard blades, they prefer ease of sharpening, and for Kershaw it's more sales and more cost effective too.
I just don't know why is it putting you off.

"Folding knives" does constitute an overly large percentage of knife usage.

Don't look down on those who don't want max hardness. Aside from ease of sharpening, a blade that is not maxed out in hardness will stand up better to tougher cutting chores. I use my knives for cutting only, but I recognize that many of the cutting operations I perform generate a certain amount of side force on the blade edge. I have found that, for me, a blade hardened to 59-60 and sharpened to a 40° inclusive angle gives me an optimum mixture of toughness and edge retention. (Funny how Sal Glessar was right when he recommended that Sharpmaker users use a bevel of 40° and save the 30° for thinning the blade. Golly, it's almost like he knew what he was talking about. Ya Think?) The way I use a knife is closer to the norm for most people that use knives. (Recognize that most folks who use knives don't frequent this forum and are not knife knuts.)

I don't need or want a scalpel. I want a sharp knife that I can use as a tool. I recognize that there are folks who use a knife differently and actually do want or need a scalpel. But they are a minority. It might behoove them to recognize that, just as Joe the Mastiff, Thom Brogan, and Gunmike1 do. To expect a large corporation to tweak their entire folder product line for the benefit of a small minority of customers at the expense of the bulk of their customers is not good business. It doesn't merely because it is less expensive, it has to do with how most people use a knife.

And once again, to reiterate my original answer, 13C26 hardened to a Rockwell hardness of 59-60, as Kershaw currently does, should be an improvement over their earlier 440A blades.

 

[Gator97]

"Folding knives" does constitute an overly large percentage of knife usage.

Probably they do not, but I don't think it's related to what I said. In my personal folding knives I seek certain qualities and that's all to it. If I manage to get it done, it's just fantastic.

Don't look down on those who don't want max hardness.

I do not. Why would you say that? I specifically stated that I have nothing against neither soft steel aficionados, nor Kershaw optimizing knives for mass market. And I do realize max performance crowd is smaller.
On the other hand, I don't think one's preference for harder blades qualifies for being on a dark side, or it is a reason for getting irritated or put off.

I use my knives for cutting only, but I recognize that many of the cutting operations I perform generate a certain amount of side force on the blade edge.

So do I. And I had very long arguments trying to prove the importance of those side forces, and if I am not mistaken you were posting few times in the same thread(knifetests.com your opinion).

(Recognize that most folks who use knives don't frequent this forum and are not knife knuts.)

I do, and in fact I said on prev. page:

because what is optimal for mass market i.e. average user, is hardly optimal for smaller group of knife nuts who want the max out of their knives.

It is obvious Kershaw has to aim for the market, to stay in business. And may be once in a while, when we get lucky produce limited editions and special runs for that small group.

So, what else can I add there to assure some frustrated folks that my quest for high hardness knives is not threatening their knives?

 

[cotdt]

The 59-60 rc for 13C26 (and steels in general) is a fine choice and we have no agenda for manufacterers to increase the hardness, so worry not. We would be interested in high hardness Limited Editions however. Those of us who used high hardness knives know that they can perform very well w/o chipping issues if done right.

And I don't doubt that Kershaw has gotten 13C26 to 64.5 rc. It is an impressive feat though I'm not aware if it's possible to do on a production scale.