"Khuky" question... ;-)~

So how do you "source" only Mercedes truck leaf springs for the steel which you claim and advertise is used in the knives you sell ?

From what I have read, the shop members make trips to local junk yards and car wreckage lots in search of Mercedes brand leaf springs, following a hierarchy of car manufacturer makes. when there isn't as many good vehicles present they make longer trips, some times into india.
 
I did a bit of research on their forum as to the steel they use and found Moogoogadian asked the same question I did back in 2010 ... more or less saying what I thought that there won't be many Mercedes truck leaf springs in scrapyards in Nepal ... the answer from Karda was that they also went to India ... but he did'nt answer my point about identifying Mercedes leaf springs and were they the only ones used? Other posters left some interesting information in this thread ... http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...l-are-the-HI-made-of..?highlight=Spring+Steel.

Tata trucks being the main provider for the India market and India being a closed shop to vehicle imports for many years because of the price point ... and how old TATA trucks were using the Mercedes truck logo being made under license when Bill first started saying this ... and how back in 1998 he came up with the preferred pecking order for leaf springs , Merecedes , Saab and then Japanese ... this is probably closer to the mark that they take what they can find ... especially from my experience of visiting Nepal and India. Hence my comment ...

So if they are basically using leaf springs as and where they can find them ... and the steel is usually 5160 ... then why not simply say this ...

As to the varying standards of the blades produced ... which was my other point ... Karda has editted his post to explain that polished blades may have an outer layer of soft steel and a tempered layer below which needs a few sharpenings to reach this ... fair enough IMO as I have encountered a similar thing with other blade makers ... Busse included. But my point was also directed to the lack accurate thermal ovens and the ability to do a consistant heat treatment ... compared to western manufacturers the basic manner in which the blades are given a heat treatment means that the skill and experience of the Kami would be the only "control" of the blade ... and the speed at which they have to make a blade due to the price point would also dictate the time available to make the blade to a high standard in the forge ...

Without becoming too technical ... the more time you have to heat the steel, bend it in half, hammer it again to a single block and repeat the process ... means that the steel is being refined and there is a complicated process of folding, piling, welding and hammering operations which can go into creating an eventual laminated steel which is very high in quality. If you have multiple laminates done like this then you are beginning to form a San Mai type of steel used in Japanese swords. However if you have fairly good steel to begin with such as a leaf spring then the skill is in how you can differentially heat the blade and shape it so that the steel at the spine is a softer hardness and that at the edge hard ... and to a great extent this is by the heat treatment and quenching ... in japan they would coat the blade once shaped in clay to enable differing temperatures across the blade to be reached and this would also alter the cooling process giving the differing times needed to ensure the hardness and softness of the blade were graduated and were in the right proportions ...

This however takes a lot of time and skill ... I am sure many Kami's have the skill but they will likely be pressed on "time" ... so what you will find is that some blades will be heated and cooled better than others ... the required "states" of the steel will be achieved in a basic number of heats and quenches and comparing a khukri made like this to a 5160 blade being made by a journeyman smith or a master smith as some have done is hardly an accurate comparison as to what the blade will be finished to. Those guys will be working a lot longer on the blade and hence they are a lot more expensive.

This is why I say that you can get "great" khukri's from a kami and to find one go by it's age and the work it has already done ... the blade is effectively "proven" as a good one.

You can also get bad ones where the only hardened part of the blade is the deep curved sweet spot and the edge retention back towards the hilt on the narrow section where fine carving can be done is soft as this is a difficult area to heat properly and still have the heat not too hot on the deeper section of the blade ... to a less extent the curve from the sweet spot to the tip can also be softer. A great khukri has a proper hardness all along the sharpened edge... and is not brittle by the handle where the section of metal is much thinner and more critical to the over all strength of the blade ... which again is the hard part to do.

This is why stock removal and oven treatments at controlled temperatures and careful finishing which does not alter the temperature/hardness of the edge which can be achieved in a factory such as Busse's and by whomever Cold Steel has outsourced it's work to ... means that the guarantee of a good blade is more likely.

This being said it is a while since I was last in India and Nepal ... and if HI can take a custom order for a Kami who can forge the steel to a multiple laminated bar and then do a differential heat treatment on the blade so that it is softer and harder in the same manner as San Mai steel and get the edge to an accurate 58 Rc ... which weighs in at 16 to 18 ounces on a 9 to 10 inch blade ... they will have a new customer in me :thumbup:
 
Last edited:
PeterPHWS said:
I did a bit of research on their forum as to the steel they use and found Moogoogadian asked the same question I did back in 2010 ... more or less saying what I thought that there won't be many Mercedes truck leaf springs in scrapyards in Nepal ... the answer from Karda was that they also went to India ... but he did'nt answer my point about identifying Mercedes leaf springs and were they the only ones used? Other posters left some interesting information in this thread ... http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...l-are-the-HI-made-of..?highlight=Spring+Steel.

Tata trucks being the main provider for the India market and India being a closed shop to vehicle imports for many years because of the price point ... and how old TATA trucks were using the Mercedes truck logo being made under license when Bill first started saying this ... and how back in 1998 he came up with the preferred pecking order for leaf springs , Merecedes , Saab and then Japanese ... this is probably closer to the mark that they take what they can find ... especially from my experience of visiting Nepal and India. Hence my comment ...

So if they are basically using leaf springs as and where they can find them ... and the steel is usually 5160 ... then why not simply say this ...
We basically do state this, noone is hiding anything. The steel is sourced from wherever it lies by experienced people. With contacts in place for over 20 years, it's not to hard to surmise that what exactly is needed is found.

PeterPHWS said:
As to the varying standards of the blades produced ... which was my other point ... Karda has editted his post to explain that polished blades may have an outer layer of soft steel and a tempered layer below which needs a few sharpenings to reach this ... fair enough IMO as I have encountered a similar thing with other blade makers ... Busse included. But my point was also directed to the lack accurate thermal ovens and the ability to do a consistant heat treatment ... compared to western manufacturers the basic manner in which the blades are given a heat treatment means that the skill and experience of the Kami would be the only "control" of the blade ... and the speed at which they have to make a blade due to the price point would also dictate the time available to make the blade to a high standard in the forge ...
Part of the appeal and charm of Traditionally made khukuri is just that.... the time honored processes that produce a khukuri. Religious considerations and tradition play a large part in it. If H.I. were to produce khukuri by modern methods, they would not be traditional khukuri. At H.I. we are not only committed to producing the finest khukuri, but also to cultivate and keep alive a centuries old, tried and true, method of khukuri making.

PeterPHWS said:
Without becoming too technical ... the more time you have to heat the steel, bend it in half, hammer it again to a single block and repeat the process ... means that the steel is being refined and there is a complicated process of folding, piling, welding and hammering operations which can go into creating an eventual laminated steel which is very high in quality. If you have multiple laminates done like this then you are beginning to form a San Mai type of steel used in Japanese swords. However if you have fairly good steel to begin with such as a leaf spring then the skill is in how you can differentially heat the blade and shape it so that the steel at the spine is a softer hardness and that at the edge hard ... and to a great extent this is by the heat treatment and quenching ... in japan they would coat the blade once shaped in clay to enable differing temperatures across the blade to be reached and this would also alter the cooling process giving the differing times needed to ensure the hardness and softness of the blade were graduated and were in the right proportions ...

This however takes a lot of time and skill ... I am sure many Kami's have the skill but they will likely be pressed on "time" ... so what you will find is that some blades will be heated and cooled better than others ... the required "states" of the steel will be achieved in a basic number of heats and quenches and comparing a khukri made like this to a 5160 blade being made by a journeyman smith or a master smith as some have done is hardly an accurate comparison as to what the blade will be finished to. Those guys will be working a lot longer on the blade and hence they are a lot more expensive.
Not sure exactly waht you're getting at here, but i can assure you that H.I. kami's are well versed in the knifemaking art. The Royal kami has even studied the art of japanese knifemaking. Rest assured that the Kamis knowledge is adequate.

PeterPHWS said:
You can also get bad ones where the only hardened part of the blade is the deep curved sweet spot and the edge retention back towards the hilt on the narrow section where fine carving can be done is soft as this is a difficult area to heat properly and still have the heat not too hot on the deeper section of the blade ... to a less extent the curve from the sweet spot to the tip can also be softer. A great khukri has a proper hardness all along the sharpened edge... and is not brittle by the handle where the section of metal is much thinner and more critical to the over all strength of the blade ... which again is the hard part to do.
You misunderstand the differential Heat treatment of traditionally made khukuri. In traditionally made khukuri, only the belly of the blade or "sweet spot" is hardened. This is where all chopping should be done. The tip of the khukuri is unhardened to prevent shattering upon impact should you hit a harder object accidentally. The spine and waist of the khukuri are unhardened to retain the toughness and elasticity that 5160 steel provides.
Hundred of years of calculated trial and error went into forming the process used today. Some would say that, even today with modern machinery and forges, modern techniques cannot produce a fine a blade as one made by experienced hands.

PeterPHWS said:
This is why stock removal and oven treatments at controlled temperatures and careful finishing which does not alter the temperature/hardness of the edge which can be achieved in a factory such as Busse's and by whomever Cold Steel has outsourced it's work to ... means that the guarantee of a good blade is more likely.
Not entirely true. YMMV.
 
Last edited:
Karda,

I don't think anyone has a lack of respect for HI. I really have a lot of respect for how they do it the old fashioned traditional way. I don't think Busse's modern rendition was meant to be a replacement of the charming traditionals. I think it was meant to be a modern rendition, taking what Busse does best and putting it into place.

When I compare the two companies I feel more certain of what I will get from Busse. It is not to say I dislike HI, but I would put my money on the modern Busse rather then a traditional HI. With that said, I don't own a khukuri and I certainly do not have the knowledge that you do about them and their tradition. But coming from the viewpoint of a consumer I feel like what I am saying is fair. I think the problem here is you are in a thread with a few guys that have used large Busse choppers with great success. I don't need my Busse to be differentially treated. I think each brand is going to have its loyal customers and they will each have their own reasons. I don't think anyone is trying to attack HI. Like you said you don't try to hide anything.

I say this with the utmost respect to HI and the craftsmen who produce the traditional Khukuri.

Kevin
 
Karda,

I don't think anyone has a lack of respect for HI. I really have a lot of respect for how they do it the old fashioned traditional way. I don't think Busse's modern rendition was meant to be a replacement of the charming traditionals. I think it was meant to be a modern rendition, taking what Busse does best and putting it into place.

When I compare the two companies I feel more certain of what I will get from Busse. It is not to say I dislike HI, but I would put my money on the modern Busse rather then a traditional HI. With that said, I don't own a khukuri and I certainly do not have the knowledge that you do about them and their tradition. But coming from the viewpoint of a consumer I feel like what I am saying is fair. I think the problem here is you are in a thread with a few guys that have used large Busse choppers with great success. I don't need my Busse to be differentially treated. I think each brand is going to have its loyal customers and they will each have their own reasons. I don't think anyone is trying to attack HI. Like you said you don't try to hide anything.

I say this with the utmost respect to HI and the craftsmen who produce the traditional Khukuri.

Kevin
I wasnt commenting on respect or lack therof. My intention here is to clear up any misperceptions and assumptions that are being passed around about khukuri or khukuri making in general ....and any pertaining to H.I.s methods or ethics.
I hate getting into discussions such as this, they are futile by their nature. That is why i stated such in my first post here.
People will buy what they like and argue justification to no end. We have customers that own both busse and H.I..... some prefer busse, some prefer H.I., just as some prefer the best at any cost and some prefer value per dollar. It doesnt mean anyones wrong, just that their preferences and tastes are different, which brings us back to the fact that comparing khukuris of different manufactuers and processes is a futile endeavor. Buy what you like, there is room for everyone.
 
My intention here is to clear up any misperceptions and assumptions that are being passed around about khukuri or khukuri making in general ....and any pertaining to H.I.s methods or ethics.

As you should IMO. I was just giving another perspective.
 
Some like and prefer the traditional

Some like and prefer the modern

And some, like me, prefer whatever catches their eye. If I like it, I want it. And I really dont care what steel, or materials its made of. I have the bonecutter, a HI Kumar Kobra and a few other little bits by HI including a nice Karda by Kumar.

Sometimes the soul of a knife is worth more than the value of a highly finished showpiece.

Just an opinion from one who owns both high end knives and "low end" knives.
 
I would get a Busse KZ if i have the funds but most of the time it goes to sourcing the rare breed of H.I and true Nepalese khukuris from everywhere.

Standing from the point of purist who also collected multiple hybrid khuks, i often make comparisons between factory and traditional-produced blades;
Great khuks are hard to come by- from the shape of pommel, to the ringed ergo-handle with tapered V-shaped spine, short non-habaki bolster, cho designs (kauda, kaudi, kaura) with the balance point/CG of blade 1/3 from the pommel and the bevel starts from the M-shaped notch, curved or angled spine, hollow-forged and the remaining 2/3 of the blade with most weight on the front (of course this is what i see as the true Nepalese Military model with Bhojpure & Budhume profile, which i owned one and considered by the Khuk Aficionado John Powell as the true appearance of pre-WWI khuk , which could be confirmed by SpiralTwista, whom i acquired this from via IKRHS.)

This one the Grandfather of kukri collection John Powell wanted to have from me many years ago because he felt the design & manufacture of this peace stood out & implied an early piece.-Spiral
.
P1010061-1.jpg

P1010064.jpg

I have several models made by the Royal Kami, Lal "Bura "Bahadur which truly humbled me. What appeared to look like a featherlight blade makes chopping your 1 week-old branches for an hour a walk in the park. Most of us would have to take a break (i do) with other blades. Not many who could produced nimble yet strong blades for Asian hands and builds (Pak Mohd can confirm) and still excels at heavy but balanced choppers for larger American/European hands.Masterpiece from him? I would say almost every single piece is unique and that's what make a traditional forged blade special.
Now saying so, would you need a San-Mai/multiple layers of folding, full tang with 5 rivets, INFI blades with Tero-Tuff scales for say SHTF moment (why not if you could afford it?)? I see these Villagers who abused their tool way more aggressive than us ;with a partial tang, sans rivets as completely adequate for their daily application.I want to ask as it's still as tricky as if I've heard it many times- Would that be a need for such ultimate khuk? Could you make your investment of such worthwhile? Would Noss4 want to test this?
Can i maximize the potential of the blade mechanism itself?

For all the yapping i've done, i stood by as a student of this mystical design and will continue to explore the unknown at its true core.
 
Last edited:
Some interesting information here :thumbup: ... whilst I have used a khukri as a tool for a lot of years I am not an afficianado of the traditional styles and subtleties of design ... I know what I like though and I know what works best for me in a khukri ... I learned this by using the first one I was given. It came from a Ghurkha I had gotten to know on the trip coming home from the Falklands. This Khukri was well used and appeared traditionally made ... it could take an edge to the point and all the way back for fine cutting. Now I have heard a little about knives developing in hardness through work and use ... perhaps that explains things or perhaps I was simply lucky and got one which was different ... the benefit was that I could use this khukri in the same manner we were taught to sharpen and use our Golok's ... the sweet spot was for chopping and had a robust edge ... from the sweet spot to the tip it was sharpened a little finer for game work and delicate cutting with the point ... and from the sweet spot curving back to the thinner stock near the handle this would be sharpened with a fine edge for cutting.

I still have my first issued Golok ...


100_0171.jpg



I could get a good edge right up to the tip but the design did'nt lend itself well for "all round" use because of the lack of a proper point ...


100_0177.jpg



This Golok is an old one ... it was from a batch going way back to 1966 ... made by Martindale in Sheffield the steel used back then is a lot better than the newer ones I have sharpened for others ...


100_0172.jpg



The Khukri I had I have'nt got a photo of ... but it was similar to the one shown here belonging to a friend ...


gorkha1-sharpen20khuk205Bafghan2001-2.jpg



My guess is that mine was a military design but not a mass produced military issue Khukri ... I suspect some of the Ghurka's use their own family blades ? May be the guys from HI might know more ...

After losing this first one I snagged a few issue ones from stores but they did'nt hold an edge well ... perhaps though they just needed a few more sharpenings to get to the tempered steel ... they did have a polished finish ...

Anyway, since 1982 I have been using Khukri's and one of the best things about the design for me is the versatility you can get from using the shape of the blade to sharpen the edge for different types of task ...

You can get plenty of power from the sweet spot ...


P1000933.jpg



and you can do good fine work if the edge can be taken back towards the spine ...


P1010209.jpg



If you have a serrated edge spine you can anchor the blade into wood by using the spine and use the sharp edge up by the tip to work the game around the knife using the point ... rather than having to choke up on such a heavy blade to use the tip delicately ... this actually works really well ... but I have'nt got a photo of this ... I would need a third hand to do a photo like that as both hands are needed to hold and cut the game ... but here is a pic of the blade being used in a similar way locking the knife into the wood by the serrations on the spine ... except that I have done this to enable me to bash down on the log with a heavy baton to get the blade through a twist in the grain ...


P1010582.jpg



And if the blade is made from Infi the edge from the sweet spot to the tip will take a sharp edge which is'nt going to "shatter" or even "chip out" when you contact with bricks or stones hidden among vegetation ...


P1010301-1.jpg



P1010302.jpg



A simple few strokes with a knife steel will bring the edge back into alignment and you can then sharpen and restore the edge ....



P1010315.jpg



You can do this in the field and the knife can still continue to chop down a tree working easily so that if you need timber for your camp fire and it is raining heavily you don't need to bring an axe ...


P1010332.jpg



For the OP ... I did this task using both a B11 and the TTKZ ...


P1010334.jpg



The B11 can chop well and is a great knife ... the TTKZ just does it quicker and IMO with less effort ... but it is heavier so go with what works best for you :thumbup:


If you want to consider the option of a cheaper traditional khukri ... I am sure they will chop the tree down fine ... but using the knife for more delicate "all around" use is'nt going to happen if the edge does'nt hold near the point or back towards the hilt ... but a karda could cover these tasks if one came with the sheath ... and would probably be a much cheaper "combo" than the cost of a TTKZ ... so if the price point is relevant it is worth considering ... :thumbup:

Personally spending money on better equipment when cheaper tools will comfortably do the task is'nt something I see as a bad decision ... there are loads of reasons both for and against in this sort of issue ... but for me I like experiencing things for myself and you have to "spend" to do that ... but at least when I say I prefer a modern Khukri I have made my mind up having tried both ... ;)
 
Last edited:
Hi Doc,

Mine is nothing compared to many meisters here.It's night-time here so i will get some pics up later.
Meanwhile these 4 are my current users:

Himalayan Imports Amar Singh Thapa Khukuri, 18" hollow forged, 35 Oz.
CopyofIMG_4647.jpg


Himalayan Imports Gelbu Hybrid, 18" hollow forged, 26Oz.
IMG_4989.jpg


ToraBlades Havildar, 19" Hollow forged, 22Oz.
IMG_5837.jpg


Torablades Khrisna Budhune, 20" hollow ground, 25Oz.
IMG_5838.jpg


Peter,

This golok reminded me of a model local army used as well; it has that Martindale appeal.
100_0171.jpg

I suspect some of the Ghurka's use their own family blades ? May be the guys from HI might know more ...
Very much yes. From what i read before they were issued the BAS (British Army Issue) for ceremonial purposes as well as a tool. Most find their inherited/ home made khuk to be ultimately dependable. I would like to continue the legacy if my grandies have that too. Rai, Magar, Limbu, Gurung and Sunwar tribesmen are what you will find in the Brigade nowadays. Now if you would ask just how serious it could be should a blade failed in the battlefield and the Gurkha made it back to his village; Killing or humiliating the Kamis who made him the blade was a common practice for the maker failed at his job.

Kukris can be broadly classified into two types: Eastern and Western. The Eastern blades are usually regarded as the thinner and are often referred to as Sirupate (Siru Leaf). Western blades are generally more broad. Occasionally the Western style is called Budhuna (refers to a fish with a large head) or Baspate (Bamboo leaf) which refers to blades just outside of the normal Sirupate blade. Despite the classification of Eastern and Western, both styles of kukri appear to be used in all areas of Nepal.-Wikipedia

Notice this Gurkha has another khuk on his left, unsheathed.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f34/s...d-[especially-gurkha-w-khukuri-knife]-735479/

I don't meant to troll around Busse forum. I'm glad you tried both.Though i once chopped down a 10" diameter log before with the ASTK,i would use an axe for that purpose. Khukuri's not meant to chop down a tree. Though HI could respect the warranty they recognized on this model, i know very well that i'm not supposed to abuse it.

BTW sweet KZ that you have there!
 
Last edited:
Jay,

You're definately not trolling and are more than welcome here :thumbup: ... the knowlege and information you can bring helps answer the OP's query ... especially in respect of traditional khukri options ... and I know I have learned a good deal from this thread :thumbup:

We share a great appreciation of Khukri's and that is the main thing ... :thumbup:
 
I have been itching to reply to this thread since it started but have been away with family for the last three days. I no longer have a large collection of HI blades, I've whittled it down to one model that I really don't want to part with and I spent very little money on. It's started it's life as a Sgt. Khadka made 19.5” 2 lb. 1 oz Chiruwa Ang Khola with rosewood scales. I won it during one of Steve Fergusons raffles of his collection to pay for Ram to go to medical school in Lithuania (or was it Latvia?). It only cost me 20$ and it was for a good cause, and it's one of the best made ang khola's I've handled thus far. As it happens with certain HI blades from the past though, the pins that held the scales on were just aluminum with no brass tube reinforcements (which is what they later moved to to help this problem), so the scales sheered the very first time I hit them with a baton, and were loos enough that I didn't want to attempt to peen them back into place. The pommell bell was a bit to sharp/wide so I decided to turn it into a hidden tang (non-stick, a rounded thick hidden tang in the style of the Busse Basics) with purple heart scales.

So, this will serve as an introduction to my following post about 'which should I get, an HI khukuri or a Busse KZ? Is it worth the extra money?'

This is what I started out with, actually more than this because in the siru and ang khola models I had at least three 18" models and three 20" models, to try to get a better hamon, balance or blade shape and profile. In this image, I don't even know if I could name all of them any more.... from left to right, a bilton, 18" ang khola, I completely forget the name, an uncle bill special ultimage fighter with d-gaurd, a cherokee special with carved handle, an 18" khobra, a 20" sirupate, a 20" dui chirra (dual fuller), a 30" siru, a falcata, an uddha sword, a gorgeous tibetan sword with dual colored handles, a patang short swrod, and a katana

DSC00548.jpg


This is what I whittled it down to as I got a bit poorer and had to start paying bills/the massive tax debt I had accrued for that year (2006). I beleive that the 18" ang khola is by sher and the 20" siru is by amtrak. They had the best balance out of all of the models I had tried, both with good tempers that ran the length of the edge to the tip and had good ring placement on the handles. You can vaguely see some of the hamon lines, though the image is small and the lighting poor for highlighting them.

DSC05619.jpg


Until I got down to just the 30" ang khola by sher and the 18" ang khola by sgt khadka. This is it's original form, with a beautiful thin taper on the tang

IMG_3592.jpg

IMG_3610.jpg


The originalform of the handle. Note the bell's size and sharpness, not all of them are like this. It depends entirely on the handle maker that carves the wood for it, or the kami who forges the tangs profile.
IMG_3595.jpg


The day the tang sheered, you can see the bright edge at the pommel side of the spine, and at the pinky position on the bell. I had sanded the ring off because it was too sharp. I did this while bashing it through a 10" 1/2 log that had several large branches running straight through it. I was force-splitting one of the more twisted peices of wood I've ever processed, really wailing on the spine with a 3 pound 4" diameter baton. I didn't actually cut through the branch, I ended up knocking it out of the wood.
IMG_4271.jpg

IMG_4270.jpg

IMG_4239.jpg


Tang cut down to a hidden tang
wwwIMG_5744.jpg


The scales
wwwIMG_5746.jpg


the finished product, next to a choiless BOSS jack, a B11, a KZ2 and a TTKZ.
zP1020825.jpg


So.... this is a visual primer to what I have, what I've had, and what I'm using now. It'll take a sec for me to write up an opinion/compairison.
 
Last edited:
To respond to the original question of whether one should buy a Himalan Imports khukuri (or comparable company, I'm only versed in HI's quality, standards, and models so I'll concentrate on them) or a TTKZ, and whether the TTKZ is worth the additional cost. Unless you work as: a firefighter who might get stuck behind a fireline and need to fend for you/your crews life, a backwoods backpacker who is 10 days out from civilization with no communications, in a warzone where you might need your knife to do work for you while trapped and under fire - you don't need a busse. The jobs and situations I describe are those where if your tool breaks you and your fellow team members/freinds might die or suffer as a result of it. This is what busse excells at, a tool that is nearly unbreakable by hand. This is there goal, and they do very well at it. That said, that doesn't make INFI and Busse knives the best at everything like edge holding, they are just high up on the scale in nearly all catagories. For that one quality of unbreakable-by-hand, you pay a very high cost premium. I think it's worth it, but I also think HI is aboslutely worth owning and using. Just not necessarily in the situation I descrbed if you have the option of a Busse.

There are several things you have to consider when choosing between the two companies:
1 - handle construct
2 - balance
3 - variability of multiple makers/handlers
4 - edge and blade geometry
5 - steel and metallurgy
6 - cost



1 - Handle Construct
There are 2 types of handles that HI produces, a hiden stick tang and an exposed full tang.
This is a NOT an HI blade, but it shows the basic shape of the stick tangs you'll find:
m.jpg

This is what you'll find in the 'chiruwa' style, or exposed tang:
zzzIMG_5735.jpg

keeping in mind that the tang is heavily tapered towards the pommel. Both of these types of handle constructs differ from Busse because busse uses either a thick hidden tang:
handle.jpg

or a full exposed tang at full thickness from ricasso to pommel:
yyyIMG_5622.jpg

This means that with Busse combat you have a LOT more metal in the handle. So much that it can alter the balance drastically. Many would say that a full exposed full thickness tang makes the knife stronger, in practice most of the stress that's applied to the knife ends up in the blade itself because that's the major bend point. As long as there are no sharp corners and a consistent taper from ricasso to tang, you shouldn't have any major stress points in your handle, thus the construct of the handle in regards to catastrofic failure is not as big of a factor as many would beleive. Failure of the handle material itself is very important however. The sheering of the aluminum tubes in my previous post is a good example, alluminum pins are not strong enough and do not have a high enough sheer strength to reliably hold the scales onto the knife. Busse's nickle tube fastesteners can sheer as well, but take more force. In the hidden tang knives, busse's resiprene c will split, but it takes a lot of force to do so. Himalan imports wood will split. In both knives, a loos handle is fixed relatively easily - with busse you can shove a rod, stick, or tie paracord around/through the single tang hole, affixing the rubber to the tang. In himalayan imports you can peen the pommel's exposed tang to flare it and push the handles back into position. If this tang knob fails however and you don't have enough to peen, you may have to remove the brass cap and do some shaving to get it into working order. All of Busse's handles are man made, or 'stabalized', meaning they have been soaked in a vacuum chamber filled with acrylic resin, or something similar. The result is a hard chunk of plastic/acrilic/man made product with natural materia's floating in it. Himalayan imports uses natural un-stabalized materials that can shrink, swell, and crack with varying temperatures and humidities. More care has to be taken to keep them in working order over time.

Handle ergonomics are important. This is just a generic example of the difference between a a large belled hidden tang handle from himalayan imports and a machined ergonomic grip from Busse:
IMG_5084.jpg

One is very simple (with the ring too low for my tastes), which is workable form every angle but will turn more readily in the hande, and the other is highly textured and with a lot of various curves. Both have a similar pinky position curve, but the bell pommel has a curve that will interact with the palm and wrist more. it is very much a matter of preference. Neither is perfect, Both are highly functional.
IMG_3595.jpg

zP1020829.jpg


2 - Balance
There are two factors that effect balance, handle construct and blade shape/thickness/geometry. Himalayan imports has much, much, much less metal in their tangs - this pushes the balance point towards the tip. Himalayan imports are consistently thicker at the spine than busse, ranging from 3/8" to 1/2" thick - this again pushes the balance point towards the tip. On my CS TTKZ the balance point is 2" forward of the index finger, on my sgt Kadka AK the balance point is 5 3/8" forward of the index finger. That is a HUGE difference, and is immediately felt picking it up and in use.
You can see how much thicker the 19.5" Ang Khola is at the ricasso, and that it continues on to the tip. Also note how much less metal there is towards the hand.
zP1010731.jpg

zP1010727.jpg

The AK takes less force to get the downward swing into motion and thus feels more like an axe or a hammer. Yet it weighs less overall than the TTKZ because of the reduction in metal at the tang and because of the 2 long/tall fullers. You get something that chops equally well but with less weight. I can tell the difference in feel, with the AK putting less strain on my forearm/hands to get it moving than the TTKZ, but not in how much wood is removed:
P1100836.jpg

P1100837.jpg
 
Last edited:
3 - variability of multiple makers/handlers
This is an important factor that makes HI a very different company than Busse. Both companies are not a single-maker company. Both comapanies hire multiple workers to grind and handle models, Jerry does handle and work on a lot of blades, but the majority of cg models likely never go through his hands on a grinder. The differences:
-Busse relies heavily on CNC technology - this means that the blades are identical to within .001" until they are hand finished. The same is true of their handles
-Himalayan imports uses a single Kami (blade smith/forger) for each blade, and a single handle maker so that that kami/handle makers work is unique compared to the other workers. Sher will forge a blade differently than Amtrak or Bura. They will have slightly different profiles, different blade geometries, and thus different balance points. They will also have different heat treatments depended on a large variety of factors, but most specifically to this section, it will depend on that makers understanding of heat treatment and what color the blade should be when applying the water coolant.

The result is that if you buy 10 FBM's from Busse they will be identical. You'll have to buy a different model like the FFBM or a Magnum scale to change the balance and feel of the knife. If you buy 10 18" Ang Khola's from Himalan Imports and they are all made by different people, you will get 10 very different knives. They will be the same length and the same general dimensions, but the edges, the hamon's, the handles, the balance will all be so different that you'll love one and not care for the other. This is both a benefit and a detriment, it means that you might have to go through 10 18" ang khola's to find one that is perfect for you, but the benefit is that you can find it. You can have a knife that is uniquely fitted to your hand with a balance that feels right for your body. You can't get that from Busse, with Busse you get whatever the standard model and dimentions are.

4 - edge and blade geometry
Busse has a huge variety of edge and tip thicknesses. On the blades that they expect to see heavy abuse, they tend to go with much thicker geometries, and with their slicers they go much thinner. this is a Tank Buster next to a Mini Sus Scrofa
P1010781.jpg

This is normally mostly consistant on the cg models. The cg KZII had a thicker tip than the TTKZ which was much closer to being a custom shop type knife with it's satin finish. But, here is the tip of a TTKZ next to my 19.5" ang khola. It's worth noting that the 19.5" ang khola actually has a substantially thinner edge than the TTKZ. Even though the tip appears to be equally thin and sharp, it does not continue like that into the edge, the TTKZ has a very robust and thick edge that leads into a very thick, robust and not-tall convex grind. See the thickness chart on this page for reference.
zP1010727.jpg

The thinness of edge and tip isn't isolated to just the smaller models, this is the tip of an enormous 30" ang khola:
P1080463.jpg

Busse often makes VERY, VERY, VERY robust tips, and often has robust edges. I've found, through the variability of makers, that tip and edge prifles with HI vary in the extreme. I've had super thick edges on smaller 16" siru's and I've had paper thin edges from sher on his 30" Ang Khola. This varies almost entirely on the maker of the particular blade. Jerry also has variability such as the MOAB geometry vs. the CABS, where the CABS is really really thin at the edge and the MOAB is really really thick. But as far as the TTKZ goes the edges are tuck, and the tip is relatively acute. For a reference of overall geometry between my 18" Ang Khola and the TTKZ (and it's custom shopped form):
7-30-20119-55-52AM.jpg

You'll note that the HI AK is both thinner and thicker, the geometry is just very different, but not necessarily worse. A direct comparison is complicated more by the variability of geomtry between models from HI. Busse only has a few types of profile - 1/2, 3/4, high saber or full, flat, hollow, deep dish or convex, and single fullered. But most of those are isolated to random models, not to the khukuries. The khukuries only have 1/2 saber convex, and full flat. HI on the other hand has multiple grinds that vary between convex, flat and hollow depending on the maker. Heres a basic idea of the geometry types, all of which can bee 18" long and in the TTKZ catagory for size:
generickhukurishapes-profiles.jpg

This goes back to HI allowing you to really sift through different models, weights, balances and geometries to finda khukuri that best fits you. with busse you have 2 options, unless you have the custom shop modify it for you - but even then you won't have the sheer number of variations present in HI's catalog.
 
Last edited:
Good points about the handle quality and balance LVC ... the grips need to stay on the blade and need to be comfortable ... to blend the benefits of lighter weight and forward balance for chopping power ... if Jerry would do a mould of the TTKZ grips and do a Basic style tang with those fitted ... so the blade could be around the 20 oz weight ... this would be my "perfect" khukri :thumbup: Oops ... should have realised there was more to come :D
 
Last edited:
5 - steel and metallurgy
This is one of the biggest yet often not understood differences between the companies. HI has always sourced out 5160 or comparable metals, though it may be something slightly different as there are different steels used in car springs like Nissan and Honda's. Their heat treating varies drastically by maker. Generally the sweet spot is always hardened with the spine left soft. Depending on the maker, you may get hardening at the tip and recurve, it may be less hard or it may be very close to the same hardness across the entire edge. The most important part of this is that you NEED to acid etch your blade to see what is going on with the heat treat. If you don't you are gambling and will have to guess at it as you use it based on rolling/mashing/denting tendancies at different positions on the edge. Here is a series of etches I've done:
One of the most beautiful hamon's I've seen on any model, good hardening at the tip, good depth, good on everything. Only a small portion of the ricasso edge is unhardned, but I'm okay with that because it reduces the likelyhood of a stress risor in the often rough edged cho -
P1040114.jpg

P1040120.jpg

P1040121.jpg

all three of these have hardening from the sweet spot to the tip, but all of them are softer at the tip then at the sweet spot. If they are hardened in the recurve, it is less hard than the tip. This is because the water is poured on the sweet spot, the moved to the tip, then moved back across to the recurve, meaning it has air cooled the most before being quenched.
IMG_1036.jpg

IMG_7593.jpg

IMG_1018.jpg

IMG_7596.jpg

IMG_7603.jpg


While working around some rocks doing a test between the 18" ang khola and the TTKZ, I bashed the tip of the AK on some of the rocks. This was the resulting damage, and the reason for the slightly softer tip area:
P1100842.jpg

P1100841.jpg

P1100839.jpg

P1100843.jpg

When you view this damage I want you to use a critical eye for the size of the damage and the type. It's very small, not going past my very small 24 degree per side secondary bevel, and it is a roll - not a chip. I have done the same type of miss-swing strike on round rocks with busse's and the damage was almost identical. This is the ideal situation for a khukuri. If the edge was brought up to a full 58-60rc it would have been much more likely to chip. I've done this on too-hard siru's.

This is a very different type of heat treatment from busse. If you say that busse's is significantly better, that does not necessarily detract from the quality and function of HI's methodology. When done correctly (again, etch your blades and find a Kami that is consistent like Bura, Amtrak or Sher) the sweet spot is hard and holds a great edge, the tip is damage resistant and still holds a decent edge, and the recurve is hardened enough for pull/push cutting but soft enough to resist stress risors at the cho. It is a good working system for making knives int he fashion and situation that they are made in, in the hills with a coal fire and a kettle of water. Remember - this is not so different than the water quenches used by master smiths in america who sell their blades for 1,000$+. The quality of the end product is dependant on the skill of the maker.

Which is the point that we come to manufacturing consistency. Busse has this hands down, without question. You can't really hold up an argument that the old methods produce a consistently better blade than modern manufacturing technique because they simply lack the scientific metrology and quality control methodology. Himalayan imports relies entirely on the ability of the maker to see temperature based on color - He will not have control of the temperatures down to 5 degree's like busse will, nor will he have the ability to perceive time down to the second like a modern heat treating oven. They rely entirely on the Kami to see cracks and defects, Busse uses penatrant dye testing with modern equipment like microscopes. The kami relies on assumption based on experience for how hard the blade is, or on the feeling of a fresh file running across the edge - Busse uses rockwell testers that are accurate down to an RC point (or moreso). You can't reasonably argue that HI produces more consistent blades or is less likely to have failures. It isn't possible based on the equipement, technology and education involved.

That said, I go back to my original argument that unless you are in life or death situations you likely won't need the level of consistency Busse affords. Things like this:
zzzIMG_5740.jpg

zzzIMG_5741.jpg

are technically stress risors that can lead to failure, but the vast majority of the time they do not develope into larger cracks. And with a slight modification like what you see in my modified handle (I rounded out and polished the cho), the stress risor is almost entirely nullified.

As far as steel and differentially/full hardening - If you can produce a blade that has a higher bend strength (more pressure required to get it to bend, and more pressure required before it breaks or takes a set), and maintain chip resistence across the entire edge while having a a fully hardened blade - There is no benefit to differential hardening. However, if you want a super hard sweet spot that has amazing wear resistance, you can get that out of HI where you can't with busse. All of busse's standard INFI is the same, there is no variability in wear resistance. 5160 put to 62rc will have higher wear resistance than 58rc INFI, but it will be more prone to chipping. It's all in what you want, what you need and what you can afford.

6 - cost
So... the conclusion. Is the TTKZ worth the extra 400-700$? Yes and no. Yes if your life depends on the knife, without question. No if you want something custom fitted to your hand, no if you want a harder edge than busse produces, no if you don't have the money to spend, no if you want different lengths, weights and sizes. Himalayan imports produces quality knives as long as your willing to do a little extra foot work, tracking down the right blade for you, etching it to gaurentee a proper hamon and hardness, and oiling the handles and leather to maintain their quality over time. They are hard working knives that are time tested - but never assume that 'time tested' inherently means better. That is a form of forced ignorance, a blindness to the possibility of better things existing and to the possibility of flaw. This works the other way around, never assume that because a blade was produced by a CNC machine and a heat treat oven that it's inherently better than a hand forged knife. Always look at your tools with a critical eye to the first 5 elements described here, always be open to innovation, to change, to betterment. In that same vein of logical analysis - just because a knife is better does not mean it is better enough to warrant the price paid for it. If a knife of lower cost fits all of your necessary criteria, it is an excellent knife for you, just because another maker is technically better does not change that.
 
Last edited:
Do you want your kukri to be able to chop off zombie heads or do you want to see it melt like hot butter when it is exposed to their acidic blood?? Then the choice is simple-only INFI will protect you. On to more serious questions............
 
Back
Top