Recommendation? KILN PID

Discussion in 'Shop Talk - BladeSmith Questions and Answers' started by NickHFSS, Jun 28, 2020.

  1. NickHFSS

    NickHFSS

    32
    Jun 26, 2020
    Hello everyone , I’ve been forging and heat treating in coals since day one and I want to up my game and get a kiln , I am buying it from a local but he said that the chinease pid that it has can have 20-30degree C off from what it shows , can you recommend any high quality PID and SSR brands or where to buy them ? So far I found ones that sell for 300$ which is out of my current budget and 20$ ones on amazon and evil bay , is there something good under 100$ ? thanks in advance!
     
  2. Skiller1nc

    Skiller1nc

    64
    Jun 27, 2016
    Auberin PID and and cheap ssr from amazon/ebay
     
  3. Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

    Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ilmarinen - MODERATOR Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 20, 2004
    The issue is likely NOT the PID but the TC, They get old and read off. The PID only can display what the TC sends it. If it is reading off by 30°C , it is almost always the TC that needs replacement.

    Even if you upgrade the PID to one that is programmable with set points, you should definitely change the TC, too.
     
  4. weo

    weo KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Sep 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
  5. Hubert S.

    Hubert S.

    261
    Dec 14, 2019
    I have a PID and thermocouple from Auber Instruments as well and I am happy with them.

    I think Stacey is right and it is more likely an issue with the thermocouple than an issue with the PID.
     
  6. NickHFSS

    NickHFSS

    32
    Jun 26, 2020
    thanks for the advice , yes that’s probably the case , which thermocouple should I get and where?
     
  7. A.McPherson

    A.McPherson KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jan 27, 2012
    Auberins.com has all kinds of stuff like that.
    I think you want a type k, but I'm sure @Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith or someone more knowledgeable will come along soon...
     
  8. Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

    Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ilmarinen - MODERATOR Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 20, 2004
    8 gauge (1/8"), Type K (you should change the mounting plate as well when you install it):

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Temperature-k-type-Thermocouple-Sensor-Ceramic-Kiln-Furnace-2372F-1300C-CR2/311940299965?epid=2128274603&_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item48a1173cbd:g:IsUAAOSw44BYb-cN&enc=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&checksum=31194029996538bc81a18d174277af83de6b1664813e


    I would also replace the thermocouple wire ... make sure the polarity is correct. Cut the leads on the TC and remove the insulators as needed to get it to fit the way the old one did ... sticking in about 1.5". The below items are all the same, it is just a factor of khow fast you need it.:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Tempe...674801?hash=item594b418671:g:OtMAAOSwk2JcyBQB

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/K-type-The...310359?hash=item3414166117:g:cuIAAOSw029dhriD

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Type-K-K-T...359149?hash=item445c1fb9ad:g:1kgAAOSw7i5e2eHD

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Skutt-Kiln...237316&hash=item2aceb5e2f7:g:hCgAAMXQoiJRh-y7

    If the current controller needs replacing, use a PID ( Auberins is good) and a 40 amp SSR and heat sink.

    For those reading this thread, it is a good practice to keep a spare TC on hand and replace it anytime the readings or HT resukts seem off. As general preventive maintenance, change the TC every couple years or 500 hours of use. Always replace the TC wire ad mounting block at the same time, as they also degrade and corrode with age and heat.
     
  9. Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

    Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ilmarinen - MODERATOR Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 20, 2004
    Nick ( and others), this is another case where filling out your profile would help you a lot. If I knew where you lived ( and that you cared to let us know that without prompting) I would gladly send you a TC and wire. Other makers might offer to help if they knew you were near them.
     
  10. NickHFSS

    NickHFSS

    32
    Jun 26, 2020

    The guy is custom making it for me , he has made over a thousand kilns for jewelers and enamel workers but only few for knife makers , I saw him actually today and he showed me some great plates he has for the spiral to go in , also has 2mm thick spiral , the pid and thermocouple he has is what he said gives 10-20 degree C accuracy , he also send me to one shop , saw some nice parts but quite expensive , the brand of pid was Delta.
    I have zero knowladge in what I need and how it works , just what a few guys told me on facebook before posting here , I need a PID a thermocouple and SSR, now I asked in shop and they said 10 degree accuracy is the least possible there is, is this true?
    Also he maker is an elder gentleman and told me about different , some old ways of making it as well , so how does this process work , the oven heats up at lets say 850C then it turns off and turns on again in what time or what temperature? I will need to hold the blades at some temperature as well yes? 99% of my work is with 80crv2 steel
    Thank you very much for your time and help , I really appreciate it and means a lot, I updated my account info , I live in country Georgia not the state , but I have a US address on which I order eveything from USA , I get 100% of my materials either from there or from UK or from Finland.
     
  11. NeutronStar

    NeutronStar

    12
    Jul 22, 2019
    0.2% accuracy on 1000 degrees would be 2 degrees, not 20 degrees.
     
  12. NickHFSS

    NickHFSS

    32
    Jun 26, 2020
    yes my mistake
     
  13. timgunn1962

    timgunn1962

    509
    Apr 1, 2009
    The industrial ramp/soak controllers tend to be a LOT more awkward to program than controllers intended for kiln users. It's not necessarily a problem if the user is fairly familiar with the basics of control, but it does tend to be the case that the guys who use industrial controllers are usually the guys who build their own kilns and are therefore in the sub-section of the population that includes folk who are either already tech-savvy in the field of control systems or prepared to accept a steep learning curve. In particular, there tends not to be password-protection between the user and expert menus.

    If you don't need/want ramp/soak capability, the Auber SYL-2352 controller in the link should be fine.

    Ramp/Soak programming allows the user to set different temperatures and ramp-rates. If you are working primarily in 80CrV2, you may not need ramp/soak. I know folk who have never used ramp/soak for anything except annealing. With 80CrV2, letting the workpiece cool with the oven should probably be plenty slow enough.

    The Auber SYL-2352P adds ramp/soak capability and has something of a following in North America. The SYL-5352P-S adds USB programming capability to the ramp/soak and I suspect this is worth the premium to many.

    I am in the UK, where Auber do not have a presence, and have not tried their controllers.

    I have used Omega CN7823 and Automation Direct Solo SL4848VR controllers for several HT ovens. These are, as far as I can tell, the same controller with different badges. IME they can be programmed from a PC using a cheap USB to RS485 converter (well under 5 bucks delivered on ebay). Both Omega and AD have very good (and patient) technical support, which seems to be pretty much worldwide. The Omega/AD unit has the ability to autotune at 4 different temperatures and to automatically select the PID terms from the tuning temperature that is closest to the setpoint. I tend to build a separate control box with plugs and sockets for the element power, the thermocouple and the door switch. The multiple PID terms means that the same control box can be used for an Austenitizing oven and for a tempering oven. It's easy to unplug the Austenitizing oven and plug in the tempering oven, avoiding a long wait for the oven to cool. The optimum PID terms for the 2 ovens are unlikely to be the same, so tuning at, say, 200 degF and 600 degF on the tempering oven and 601 degF and 2000 degF on the Austenitizing oven, means that the control should be pretty good on both ovens. To be honest though, the only time I used 2 ovens in this way, both were identical (or as close to identical as I could make them).

    When I built my first HT oven about 10 years ago, I found that keeping the output cycle time short was *really* important for stability. I settled on 2 seconds after playing around with a borrowed high-end ($1000) controller and then looked for a cheap ramp/soak controller that would do the job. That's when I found the Omega and Automation Direct ones. At the time, all of the kiln controllers I could find had fixed output cycles of 30 seconds and I had determined that the "saw-tooth" temperature variation at 30-seconds was more than I was prepared to accept. 2 seconds gives much smaller saw-teeth.

    If you do a reasonably good job of tuning (I find the Autotune on the Omega/AD units is excellent and tend not to mess with them after Autotuning), you should find that you don't see the temperature move by more than 3 or 4 degF from setpoint. I work in degC and seldom see a 2-degC deviation except when loading/unloading.
     
  14. NickHFSS

    NickHFSS

    32
    Jun 26, 2020
    thanks for info I also order stuff from UK so if there is a better option I can do that , so the links I mentioned is good set for me yes ? And what else will I need to set it up together ?
     
  15. NickHFSS

    NickHFSS

    32
    Jun 26, 2020
    Tomorrow I am planning to buy it , can someone please confirm that the three items I posted links of are good quality , will work for what I need and will work together? and if I need anything else?
     
  16. weo

    weo KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Sep 21, 2014
    Hi Nick. I know the controller and the SSR are decent quality. I can't speak to the thermocouple, though, because mine is for my forge and subjected to 2200F+ (1200C+) temps regularly. You might also want to think about a ceramic sheath for the thermocouple, depending on the temps it's going to be subject to. Also, are you sure you need a 40A SSR? It's my understanding (through conversations with Auberins tech support) that more capacity isn't necessarily better for SSRs. It's not bad, but if your equipment doesn't need it, you don't need to spend the extra money.
     
  17. Hubert S.

    Hubert S.

    261
    Dec 14, 2019
    I have that controller (SYL-2352) and I am happy with it. I have a different thermocouple from them (WRNK-191) that has also worked well for me. My oven has an old, cheap 20A SSR (I believe a Fostek) that was part of a sous-vide rig many years ago and it has worked well so far. I am fairly certain the one you linked would be an upgrade from that. The SSR is on an aluminum heat sink, but I put a fan on it after the first couple of test runs showed the SSR getting very hot. It has been fine ever since. I think whatever SSR you get, you should check that it has adequate cooling.
     
  18. NickHFSS

    NickHFSS

    32
    Jun 26, 2020
    The spirals of mine can do 1200C more like 1100C will be max when the oven is done , so do I need the sheath?
     
  19. NickHFSS

    NickHFSS

    32
    Jun 26, 2020
    BTW what options are for the spirals ? What I have is 2mm thick soviet spirals that are just top notch but the guy also told me a Swedish brand that starts on K but cant remember it....
     

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