Kitchenwares & Chef Tools

C

Chef2

Joined
Jun 6, 2004
Messages
10
I am new to the blade forums and hope to become a regular!
My favorite kitchen knife is my Messermeister Granton Edge Santoku (the Granton blade refers to the small air pockets cut into the blade, these are offset to retain blade strength- cuts anything as easy as soft butter), the runner up is the Shun Classic Santuko (Damascus VG-10 "Super Steel" clad with 16 layers of SUS410 high carbon stainless alloy folded onto each side of the blade - total of 33 layers). I find these layers also help make the blade surface somewhat non-stick.
The Messermeister is a dream to hold and use, the Meridian Elite series that I use is one piece fully forged German high carbon no stain molybdenum vandium tool steel. The riveted POM handle looks like the classics from other German makers (from a distance). The handle of every messermeister Meridian Elite is rounded & smooth, has a bolsterless edge and is hand honed and micro polished over 30 extra steps! The extra wide blade also has a perfect camber for easy rocking movements.
The Shun Classics have an amazing edge also, either one of these knives can be used for several hundred meals before sharpening is needed. As a Certifed Chef & Chef Instructor with over 20 years in restaurant and hotel kitchens, I have picked up a thing or two about cooking and knives. I stated my knife collection as a kid and wow it has grown.
I love Damascus blades!
Is there anyone out there who collects Damascus layered blades?
I am looking for a lightweight pocketknife, like my Spyderco Military in size and weight with a Damascus blade, any suggestions?
Happy Cooking!
Chef Edward
www.chefdepot.com
 
I just ordered a Kai paring knife from agrussell , that's the same as the Shun Classic. Looks nice, should work well I think I'll give a report after I check it out. Been very happy with my Henckels over the years but I decided to try something different.
 
I'm very interested in this area of knives right now, Chef 2. The qualities of a kitchen tool are not neccesarily the same as for a folder or chopper.

Glad you're here. Welcome to Bladeforums. Check out HI in the manufacturers section.


munk
 
Hi Guys,
Anything made by Kai or Shun (same company) is amazing.
I tossed together woodsmoked strip steaks with a carmelized onion aujus this evening, along with chipole and smoked paprika grilled potatoes, zucchini and a simple house salad with tomatoes, mushrooms and parmasiano - reggiano cheese topped with white balsamic dijon vinaigrette. Belive me, with two Chefs in the kitchen, this was simple fare.
The nicest thing about the meal was working the BBQ out back with a cold one. The other thing was slicing the onions, mushrooms and tomatoes with the SHUN santoku, the blade of my 33 layered is exacly 6 1/2 inches, perfect balanced and slightly slippery due to the taper of the layers. The knife is perfectly balanced and the resin impregnated Pakka wood "D" shaped handle makes a perfect grip. The handle is layered hardwood veneers of pakka with resins fused together to form a solid wood grain structure. The advantage is a comfortable waterproof non slip naturally beautiful handle. A rounded solid stainless steel bolster with a ss end cap on the back. Here is the link to my Shun knife: :eek:
:
http://www.chefdepot.com/kershaw.htm
Edward
 
Chef,

How is a kitchen blade different than a hunting/skinning blade- is it desirable to have the same hardness, profile, 'elasticity' for want of a better word- but what makes Kitchen knives for the kitchen? Yes, I know there are over laps, but the general message is?

You see, I've never understood this. I have some Chicago cutlery that I have to sharpen all the time. I have an older solingen butcher blade from somewhere- sharpened until it grew a curve, and a couple other mongrels, but have no clear idea what I should have, and why.

What is the advantage of a Messermeister, or Kershaw kitchen blade, or any of the top end?

I got a lot of questions. You know how in all things there is a fat part of the curve- where you pay the money neccesary to get 98 percent of the benefits, and beyond that, you pay exponentially for increments of improvement. Well, I want to know what I have to spend.

thanks

munk
 
Chicago Cutlery is terrible, very poor steel, that's why you had to sharpen it often. At this point in time kitchen knives are stainless steel, but the steels vary considerably .The steel should be high carbon ,at least .75 % as much as about 1 %.For stainless it has to have about 14% Cr.It will also contain at least a small percentage of things like V, Mo.....Hunting knives typically are heavier duty that is a thicker blade for multiple use. Kitchen knives vary in design depending on the job. The major knife in the kitchen is the chefs knife which is 6-12" long, 8" about best for home use and it has a broad blade of 2-2 1/2" for a slightly curved blade so it can be rocked for chopping things like parsley and is stiff and fairly heavy which assists cutting and can be used for a light duty cleaver (use the heel of the blade for things like chicken)...Then there is a paring knife ,3-4" blade .Those two knives will do 95% of your work so spend your money there.A good knife will last a lifetime so get the best. Other knives include a 8"carving knife and fork for roasts,6-8" boning knives(narrow,stiff), 4-10"fileting knife( narrow,flexible), a thin 6" blade for fine cutting of veggies as in sushi, a butchers steel or ceramic or diamond sharpener. Most of my kitchen knives are Henckels but there are others . I won't comment onknives I haven't used .Often the steel type is not mentioned only "high carbon stainless". Price ? look at it this way, a good knife will easily last you 50 years, if it's $100 that's $2 per year you can certainly afford that !
 
Thanks, Mete. I know what you've said is basic and actually hard to write in a learned knife forum. But I needed it- good start basis but mostly a refresh. This idea of two knives doing a majority of the work and so spend the money to get quality is a good one. I've taken a step in that direction- a messermeister santuko arriving shortly. It was about half the price of our lawn furniture. ( Ok- so I worked my whole life to buy cheap lawn furniture- 160 bucks)

There is something great about having the right tools.

Is the steel preferred in Kitchen knives the same preference in hunting knives?


munk
 
Munk,

While I recently dissed somebody for hyperbole, I'm willing to cut this site a little slack--make of that what you will. If I had the $$ I'd own a few of his knives at this time--they seem very reasonable, and have gotten good reviews.

http://watanabeblade.com/english/pr...some aspects of your separate cleaver thread.
 
Yes, firkin, I've given up on HI making a cleaver. Now I kinda hope HI might make a modified Bowie with a flat straight edge I can use as a cleaver....

anyway- the second cleaver I got was soft, I'm getting my flawed but harder edged one back. The edge is hollow ground- stupid I know, but I will see what it does before I attempt a mod.

I think your idea of blade design fitting the cusine is right on. Btw, I've seen chicken cut like you've described in Chinese restaraunts.

I'm not sure how I got started on kitchen knives. I guess the cast iron skillets I hunted down helped.

My wife has this crazy idea I can actually cook.


munk
 
Hey Jim Clifton- I know it won't surprise you to learn I'm a master of the peanut butter sandwich!



munk
 
Hi Guys,
I agree with Mete, Chicago Cutlery is terrible stuff. You would be amazed at how many people we meet who think it is a fine blade. Also, the name was sold many years back and it has evolved into car door steel punched out and ground down to a point, just like Hoffritz and many other fine brands gone sour. Henckzels is another one, amde in Germany -ha, used to be, most of it is punched out of low quality recycled steel.
Duo Boi (Two Oxen)- It is good, made in Italy by hand, I met the owners recently and the want us to feature the line. Three problems - the US Dollar vs. The Euro and the exchange rate. Tough to do business and make a nickel. Their website in deeply engraved into each blade, you will never forget it (major turn off over here).
Here is the Two Oxen link again http://www.twoxen.it/
I do have one of their paring knives and it is good. Shun and Messermeister are great. The differences are not only in the steel but the handles, feel, balance and overall ease of use. It all starts at the materials and design. Italian and French cutlery, like Sabatier, to us feel to small in the hand, the blades are a little thin and they are dated in design.
Japanese do make great knives, again, most are small and delicate for small hands. My good friend "Shinichi Watanabe" hand makes his knives and they are sweet. A great knife for the price. We import them so we have some in stock over here. The Blades are small and thin but we like them for fruits and vegetables, handmade by the family since the 1800's. Here is his website: http://watanabeblade.com/english/pro/index.htm
Today I met with a few sales reps for large manufacturers and we talked cutlery. I showed them 3 knives - a Wusthof, a Henckels and a Messermeister, all German brands for the most part, they saw the difference right away, as soon as the held them. The edge retention is superb too.
The bottom line, a good Chef knife must meet the needs of the owner who uses it, buy the best you can materials and design
(at the lowest price).
Same as pocket knives!
Have a good evening!
Edward
 
As a metallurgist my first concern is the type of steel in a blade. Perhaps others are not so interested but finding the type of steel can be difficult if not impossible.. The Shun/Kershaw/Kai Cutlery knife has a center layer of excellent VG-10. The Messermeister is of AUS8 which I found only on one site after a long search, www.chefdepot.com. BTW I have to say that I consider the chefdepot site to be terrible ,very confusing and difficult to find things. Website designers should take a look at www.mcmaster.com the best I've ever seen and it's backed up by great delivery and service.
 
Mete;

I also find the Chefdept web site to be awkward to use. You must flip through redundant pages following a single brand or type of item. I understand it is in process of redesign however.

I'm not a metalurgistic, so tell me, what is AUS8? And how much of the center layer on the Shun does one actually use- being as how it has 16 layers of metal on it. Also, tempering and forging have much to do with metal's characteristics.

I used my Messermeister Santuko tonight for the first time. The first Granton edge I've ever tried. I've used sharp thin knives before, so the real event this evening was the granton edge. The knife glided through objects. It was very smooth. Nothing stuck to it. Ease of use. The balance is right at the bolster, which makes for a tool that floats in one's hand. There's no doubt I'm going to like it. I can see where after hours of use it would fatigue the wrist less than other blades. For the thick, hard carrots, I used the Chinese cleaver. The Santuko had to work harder than I would like. The cleaver simply snipped the carrots down.

The cleaver weighs two pounds. There are very few things it would not just 'snip down'. You wouldn't want to use it for any thing but heavy tough items, though. Moving that mass would get tiring.
I had a blast.
Good tools are going to make it fun to cook again.
munk
 
That is a great site, Mete. But all it says for the kitchen knives is 'high carbon stainless steel'. Chefdepot has a Chef working there, that has to be worth something.

But all that stuff at the other site- if the hand wheel on my new coffee grinder breaks, I know where I could buy a hand crank to replace it!!

munk
 
Chef2, I've often thought there needs to be a kitchen knives forum at this site. Thanks for launching this thread at least!

I'm a better-than-average home cook, nothing more, and no aspirations to become a chef. Believe me, I respect the difference. I have a collection of kitchen knives that have come together over the years, including Sabatier and Cutco 8" chef's knives, an A.G. Russell 7" and some others. I have the Wusthoff Santoku that Rachel Ray uses, a gift a couple of years ago, and it's a favorite. I have a Zanger cleaver that I once dented grievously trying to chop frozen lamb bones (dumb!). The nice fellow at Knives Plus in Lansing, Michigan, reground the blade for me, and though it doesn't have the neat, symmetrical rocker that it used to have, it's not bad. I know how to keep these all sharp and don't think that's a chore.

My question is this. For the home chef, is there anything to be gained by scrapping a mongrel collection like this and laying out a few hundred for "the good stuff"?
 
Last year I hadn't heard of Santoku knives when a customer ordered one from me. I looked them up online and came up with this design. This was the first Santoku knife I had seen in person. I have since made a few more and like them very much.

7" X 1/16 X 2" D2 blade heat treated to 60 HRC.
G-10 handle with Loveless rivets.

I don't grind any special divots on the edge, just a convex grind and they work very well. As well as slicing, they will chop a chicken in half with one push, easily.
 
That's a damn good question, and why I got the Santuko. I figure it'll be used for 80% of my cutting chores. I never had a great kitchen knife before and I intend to report on what I find.



munk
 
AUS8 is a Japanese steel very similar to 440B ,a very good steel but the VG-10 of the KAI would have better edge retention with it's higher carbon content.. See www.agrussell.com for a listing of knife steels. The KAI has a center layer of VG-10 which does all the work, the outside doesn't matter much though theirs is made fancy with damascus. I just got the Kai paring knife that I ordered but haven't really gotten to use it .It certainly looks good ,ground nicely and with that steel ought to work fine.......A properly designed tool of any kind is always a joy to use and it makes the job easier. All you have to do with cutlery is to learn to sharpen it properly and keep it very sharp - there are jobs you just can't do with a dull knife ! Despite instructions that a good knife is dishwasher safe ,I would never do it .The minute the knife work is done it's cleaned by hand and put away. ......The cutlery companies usually make both european and oriental types .I you are doing lots of oriental type preparation that would be the knife style most suitable.My experience, both cooking and knives , is european so that's the style I have. Don't get oriental knives just for the "mystique".....Cleavers have somewhat of a different definition east and west , in the west it's for cutting through bone ,in the east the lighter ones chop or slice meat veggies etc. I have a small weastern one , what I call my chicken cleaver ,suitable for that job. I also have a CLEAVER which has a 8" blade and it's 3 pounds for the T Rex etc !!!
 
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