Kitchenwares & Chef Tools

If you check my previous post you will find the proper nominal composition.The Messermeister info is wrong . The steel 50CrMoV15 has the ID number 1.4116. Again the info is nominal so what they actually use may be slightly different ...... 55 % Carbon ,15 % vanadium, 15 moly ????? GOOD GRIEF !!!!!
 
A forum on Kitchen/Butchers knives would be a good idea. But, like hunters and folders kitchen knives cross the whole range of steels and quality. I know people who will spend $200 to buy the perfect carving knife for the Sunday roast and expect it to last them a lifetime without sharpening and other people who are quite prepared to buy the supermarket specials and prepared to sharpen it properly and probably get better use out of it. Like Hunting knives Kitchen knives fall into different catergories e.g. those for the professional who uses a knife all day and those for the home cook who prepares maybe one or two meals a day with them.

With all knives there are crossovers. I have used good quality 4" kitchen knives for hunting and fishing and at the same time am prepared to use a good quality fixed or folding knife in the kitchen. For many professionals in the cooking/butcher trade they want a knife that is light and easy to sharpen that is why carbon steel blades were so popular and would be still if it wasn't for the health police. Ask many an old butcher what they used and 90% of the time the response will be 'Green River'. For most in the trade anything over 56hrc is too hard - they want to put the edge back on quickly and don't want to spend their leisure time sharpening knives. Try and explain to them that they would be better off with better steel in their knives and they will laugh at you. There is only a minority of professionals who use the better quality knives for some it is an ego trip but for most it is because they know what they are doing and how to look after their knives. Maybe in time they can be convinced to move to better steels but at the moment most of the customers I service (with F-Dicks) they are prepared to go with what they have been using for years and when it wears out replace it (most of my "chicken boners" are replaced in 6 weeks by which time they are toothpicks).
 
JDBlade

I hope chef2 returns soon and the two of you have a discussion- very informative for me.

While playing around with my new diamond hones I sharpened my German eye knives. I hadn't noticed before but they really aren't all that hard- 56, 57 RC? Don't know for sure as I don't have a file- but what is interesting is one day I took a German Eye knife and scraped the calcification off a rock I'd found in the prarrie. This calcium deposit is like kiln fired clay. It is white and sometimes covers an entire agate or other rock worth saving. I scraped this hard coating off with the German eye. The pocket knife needed sharpening when I was done, but that steel was so tough, so springy and tenacious that it did the job. I must say the German eyes I have are easy to sharpen and last a while when sharp.

hardness isn't everything.

I sent a cleaver back to Chefdepot because it was way too soft- all of 30 seconds to get sharp. I have one here now made from high carbon chinese steel that is so hard it has taken some stoning and now the diamond hones to sharpen, and I still have a little ways to go if I want it razor sharp.

munk
 
Most of my kitchen knives are made by Wüsthof. I say "most" because I will occasionally use a Puma White Hunter in the kitchen. I also have a saw that I use to cut beef bones to make phở bò.
 
Hi Chef.

I own a cooking school and teach cooking classes as well. If you look at my knife block you will see that every single knife I use was made in Japan. The reason is hard, thin blades. These hard blades allow the manufacturer to apply and for you to benefit from lighter weight and sharper edges. That means less fatigue on the prep table.

Personally, I think Messermeister makes the best forged knives in Europe. I really appreciate the easy maintenance of the half bolsters along with the good balance. But they are heavy. A switch to lighter knives is easy and quick and pays off in the long run. It is something like switching from a family sedan to a sports car.

The Shun blades are in the middle quality area for Japanese knives but will outperform any knife made in Europe. My main negative with them is that little thought was given to balance throughout the product line. The 8" chef balances pretty well, the rest of the line doesn't. A 10" chef in Messermeister will balance to perfection. The Shun is very, very blade heavy. My Kikuichis and Misonos all balance throughout the line and some superior "damascus" products are also available with good balance from Hattori and Ittosai. The Global knives (also in the middle quality and price range) all balance perfectly because the factory puts the right amount of sand in the hollow handle to ensure it.

I wrote an article for Saveur magazine and it looks like they aren't going to publish it. You might enjoy reading it at http://www.thegoodgourmet.com/revolution.htm.

I have started a cooking forum that has a specific category for kitchen cutlery at http://www.foodieforums.com
 
Interesting article but I wonder if it's a bit too technical for the magazine .Does the average person have any understanding of Rockwell hardness ??. ..... Knife weight - I recently bought a titanium chef's knife ,just out of curiosity, and of course it's much lighter than the Henckel I'm used to. The weight does have a part in the cutting and I wasn't happy with the titanium. I wonder how much of the situation is what we are used to. A more acute bevel and keeping it very sharp certainly makes a difference.
 
There is an adjustment period in the switch. If you are used to heavy knives and switch to lighter ones, it feels funny at first. The adjustment period is a short one, though, and worth the effort in my opinion. The instructors at my cooking school have almost all made the switch and our knife block there is already about half Japanese. Glad you found the article interesting. I think I'll give up on that and keep working on my kitchen knife book. Take care.
 
I read your article with interest but I would dispute your assertion that harder steels mean sharper knives. Harder steels properly sharpened will mean longer edge holding ability but not necessarily sharper knives. I often sharpen knives for the meat-work trades and those that work in the meatworks esp. desire and edge geometry of 15 degrees or less. Most meat workers will create their primary edge at less than 10 degrees. This is achieved by laying the blade flat on the stone and raising it less than 1/8" and working the knife on the stone until a minimal burr is created - turning the knife over and repeating the process. The knife is than taken to the "fine" stone where the secondary edge is created often at around 10 degrees depending on what the knife is to be used for. This process is done with knives that would average 55 hrc. This sharpening process is normally undertaken once a week (normally on weekends) and during the week the edge is re-aligned with a fine or smooth steel.

Meat workers perform an 8 hour shift with their knives and most you talk to find no reason to change their methods or their knives. I believe that the average meat worker would use their knives a lot more than a chef and find no reason to change to hi-tech knives.

There of course is a difference in the methods - no chopping, minimal hard services as most work is undertaken on the beast etc. i am of the view that many of the newer knives with hard steels are nice to have but not necessary. Properly sharpened and looked after traditional western knives will do the job esp. for those starting off in the trade or those on "wages" who are looking at costs.
 
But if the steel were harder, they could use an even more acute angle without the edges folding. The real issue in the kitchen is the cutting board which folds edges. I know of no blade hardened to 55-56 that could take a whole day of cutting against a cutting board with 15 degree bevels without the edges rolling. Cutting against cutting boards is what chefs do except when paring, filetting, cleaving or boning.

If the meat cutters don't use the knives against a cutting board, then the bevels can be more acute. Different applications. 10 degrees is fine for a razor but not OK for an axe, regardless of the steel.

My point is that the edge should be appropriate for the application and the hardness of the steel. I don't think we really disagree at all.
 
I agree. My point was that the hardness of the steel is not relative to its sharpness. I can make a knife out of mild steel and sharpen it and it will be just as sharp as a blade at 60hrc in the first instance.

From my experience there is one difference between food preparers and meat workers and that is that meat workers continually steel their knives (more and more are now using smooth or polished steels) even butchers who would cut against a board continually re-align the rolled edge. It is probably something of a tradition with meat workers who learn the practice from an early age - it is just natural for them to do so. Maybe it is the hustle and bustle of the kitchen that prevents food preparers from steeling their knives automatically as meat workers do.

Whilst there is a place for top-grade 60hrc plus knives in food preparation I believe cost and tradition will prevent their intrustion into meat working. If you gave a meat-worker a $200 knife he/she would be scared stiff of dropping it, losing it or having it pinched for a start. I also wonder of the practicality of having extremely hard knives around bones and whether or not they would be prone to chip more than their softer counterparts.

I have worked with meat workers over a period of time seeking the perfect "boner" and the closest we came was a D2 blade at 61hrc which proved to be greatly in advance of the softer blades but unfortunately we could not get it past the health police. The answer would be a steel such as S30V but the cost will rule it out for the average worker. As a matter of interest my chicken boning customers reckon the perfect boner would be half flat ground and half hollow ground at the handle end of the knife. We are still working on it!
 
I think one of the best kept secrets in the kitchen cutlery world is the Japanese honesuki or boning knife. They are single bevel ground with the inside of the blade fground flat and the outside edge ground convex. They have a acute point. The user handles cutting tissues and joints as with any boning knife and then scoops the breasts off by rolling the knife with the convex side of the blade against the carcass. They are quite heavy compared to western boning knives. They work really well for their intended purpose. I suppose you could hollow grind part of the blade if that helps.
 
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